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Atrocity and a benevolent God
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Mr. Wolfe
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:00 am    Post subject:  Atrocity and a benevolent God
Subject description: was Hitchens right?
 

Millions of atrocities occur around the world every year. Massacre, starvation, natural disasters, rape of all varieties, systematic fraud, global deception, and anything else mankind can manage to do. Whether the relative amount of atrocity today is any more or less than it was, say, three thousand years ago, is impossible to know, but contemplating even a tiny fraction of it all is enough to destroy many people’s faith in benevolent God.

One such person, who isn’t known to have experienced any atrocities himself, was Christopher Hitchens, who is quoted as saying this:


Hitchens refused to believe that a just God exists

His argument is worthy of consideration, and should not be lightly dismissed by believers, despite being flawed. The case of the Fritzl family is beyond heartbreaking, and there is no disputing the fact that God did not supernaturally intervene to stop this atrocity from happening over the course of so many years. To say that this is fair because God does not intervene in other atrocities is not only irrelevant, but impossible to know; certainly, there are countless reports of miracles that have happened during atrocities. So what about the Fritzl case? Was Hitchens correct to argue that a just, benevolent God cannot exist in the face of such “indifference”?

Like most people who are outraged at God’s supposed indifference to the world’s troubles, Hitchens confuses mankind’s indifference with God’s, while also constructing his own imaginary narrative of the events. He asks the listener to imagine the anguish and pleading of Elisabeth Fritzl, and then instantly answers himself by saying there was no answer at all by God; by which he means, of course, that the atrocity was allowed to continue. We all know that if we fellow humans were able to stop the events we would do so immediately. Nobody is so heartless and lacking in compassion. So why did God, who is able to do everything, and supposedly full of love and mercy, not stop it?

Firstly, let us be reminded of our unworthiness to question God’s wisdom, who is far beyond the wisdom of man, and whose righteousness is beyond question:

    (Romans 9:20-23) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? (21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: (23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


God is not like us, and He does not blush at death or suffering, although He has tasted both. He has suffered in a manner more profoundly unjust than anyone else who has ever lived, feeling the entire weight of the sin of the world — including Fritzl, Hitler, Stalin, Caligula, and any other evil soul bound for damnation! — on himself, being totally innocent. He, humbling himself and undergoing the experience of mortality from birth, felt the complete despair of condemnation, which is much greater than any suffering that mankind could inflict, for the purpose of obeying God the Father, and in order to conquer evil with holiness; to destroy the power of Satan, and to give a promise of hope to all mankind, forever! On that cross, God alone experienced an atrocity greater than anything that has, or ever could, happen to us. His wisdom is not lacking, and his judgments are beyond question. To doubt the righteousness of God is to make a fool of yourself.

Now, let us take a look at the woman in question, who endured so much pain. Since her escape, and since the conviction of her father, she has begun to recover psychologically, according to this report:

    For the outside world, the first tangible signs of a return to something approaching a normal life occurred in late 2008 after Elisabeth and her children were deemed sufficiently recovered to be given a new home in “Village X”. By July last year Elisabeth had struck up a relationship with Thomas Wagner, a security guard with the Austrian firm A&T securities. He is 23 years younger than her. Wagner was assigned to the family shortly after the move to ensure their safety. “It may seem remarkable but they are still together,” said a source close to the medical team that monitors the family. “Thomas has become a big brother to the children,” she added. Elisabeth is reported to have radically scaled back the therapy she undergoes for post-traumatic stress disorders as her relationship with Wagner has progressed.


Should it be any surprise that she is recovering through finding true love? And should it be any surprise that a man could truly love a woman who was so wholly in need of it? Her hellish experiences have given her a profound appreciation for actual love, and because of this she will continue to heal and move forward in a way that most people will never know, equipped with a resilience and enlightenment that pampered, jaded fools like Hitchens could never attain. And again, we see an insight into her mentality:

    By any standards, Elisabeth Fritzl’s fight back to a comparatively normal life must count as a near miracle. [Notice that even the journalist counts it as a miracle.] Her struggle began in early April 2008, when she persuaded Fritzl to take their daughter, Kerstin, to hospital after she fell unconscious from acute kidney failure. Before that, she had reacted to the imprisonment by having fits and shredding her clothes and stuffing the remains in a toilet. Almost as soon as she was admitted to the clinic, doctors became highly suspicious and alerted the police.

    But psychiatrists such as Dr Adelheid Kästner say that Elisabeth’s second and probably most significant catharsis occurred at her father’s trial almost exactly a year ago. The press and public were banned from the court to allow a videotaped recording of Elisabeth giving evidence to be played. Elisabeth crept into the court in person to witness her father’s reactions. Then Josef turned round and saw her for the first time since her escape. He broke down and wept. At that moment Elisabeth knew she had won. [The article concludes on a note of victory in battle.]


Her long and brutal suffering, though inconceivable to most people, is not beyond God’s healing ability. What unbelieving, hopeless, and materialistic fools like Hitchens fail to realize is that although our bodies are subject to all forms of suffering, the spirit of the innocent is protected by God, and He answers their prayers by granting them strength to endure anguish, and overcome evil with goodness. The report itself says that her recovery is a miracle, but this is not uncommon for people who have truly experienced atrocity. Child soldiers and others who have faced true evil are often keenly aware of the righteousness of God, because they feel more keenly than anyone the protective, restorative power of the Holy Spirit in the face of incomprehensible wickedness. When the atrocity is over, they feel the relief more than they feel the pain, finding God and wondering how people with so much to be thankful for can be so dark and miserable — so blind. Their perspective has forever changed, because they have been put into contact with true good and evil, unadulterated by being seen through the comfortable lens of journalism.

Hundreds of thousands of stories as painful as this have happened throughout history, but the extent of God’s myriad influence throughout them all is far beyond any of our understandings. His personal relationship with each victim, and the countless ripples that spread outward from each event, teaching and displaying countless messages for humanity’s edification, are for Him to know, and not for us to try to measure. To imagine that God must directly intervene in order to create a peaceful, just world is to completely underestimate the truth of life, justice, and the narrative of the world. Do not let your own narrow, presumptuous, and weak notions of justice obscure what God teaches us through others, and what he is capable of doing for those who must undergo tragedy.

    And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. (Romans 8:28)

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7224
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:05 am    Post subject:  

I don't get how you can be so preachy about god, and yet be so manipulative, hateful and inconsiderate.
It makes me laugh.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:09 am    Post subject:  

As a Catholic I just try to be a kind, loving, giving person, and have faith that someday I'll be given the reward of seeing my relatives again.



EDIT: Although, I'm probably going to hell because I liked MGS4's ending.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:21 am    Post subject:  

The Man wrote:
As a Catholic


Shitstorm ahead about priests as pedos and how catholics suck. Wolfe doesn't like catholics so much.
Cause, ya know....he is a "christian"

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:25 am    Post subject:  

Julia wrote:
The Man wrote:
As a Catholic


Shitstorm ahead about priests as pedos and how catholics suck. Wolfe doesn't like catholics so much.
Cause, ya know....he is a "christian"


But my priest touched me because it was for my own good.

Besides, the wine was pretty kickass.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:33 am    Post subject:  

Julia wrote:
The Man wrote:
As a Catholic


Shitstorm ahead about priests as pedos and how catholics suck. Wolfe doesn't like catholics so much.
Cause, ya know....he is a "christian"


I always thought they were the same thing...even though I was raised as one of them. i forget which.

my turning point was the same as any other comedian, found out masturbation was a sin and stopped going to church. sunday are now one of my most productive days for masturbating, at least
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:37 am    Post subject:  

SpaceByrd wrote:
Julia wrote:
The Man wrote:
As a Catholic


Shitstorm ahead about priests as pedos and how catholics suck. Wolfe doesn't like catholics so much.
Cause, ya know....he is a "christian"


I always thought they were the same thing...even though I was raised as one of them. i forget which.

my turning point was the same as any other comedian, found out masturbation was a sin and stopped going to church. sunday are now one of my most productive days for masturbating, at least


After I beat off I just walk down the street, tell my priest and ask for forgiveness.

He's probably getting sick of my constant visits.

Edit: Damnit, every time I jump into a conversation the topic somehow switches to playing pocket pool.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:42 am    Post subject:  

Discussing religion is pretty much useless. The problem of theodicee will never be solved, like basically all theological questions.

Better watch some videos of Hitchens pwning pacifists or demonstrating that Mother Teresa was a disgusting person.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:48 am    Post subject:  

The Man wrote:
Edit: Damnit, every time I jump into a conversation the topic somehow switches to playing pocket pool.

i'm the one who keeps bringing it up. it's a pretty big part in my life. it fills that religion hole.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:49 am    Post subject:  

SpaceByrd wrote:
The Man wrote:
Edit: Damnit, every time I jump into a conversation the topic somehow switches to playing pocket pool.

i'm the one who keeps bringing it up. it's a pretty big part in my life. it fills that religion hole.


Okay, just out of curiosity then, do you think God would be a righty or a lefty?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:51 am    Post subject:  

The Man wrote:
SpaceByrd wrote:
The Man wrote:
Edit: Damnit, every time I jump into a conversation the topic somehow switches to playing pocket pool.

i'm the one who keeps bringing it up. it's a pretty big part in my life. it fills that religion hole.


Okay, just out of curiosity then, do you think God would be a righty or a lefty?


he probably switches it up so one arm doesn't get bigger than the other
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7224
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:51 am    Post subject:  

The Man wrote:

But my priest touched me because it was for my own good.



We had 2 in our parish when I was in grade school. One was the Monsignor (you seem to earn that title when you are in a rich parish, the more money you bring in, the bigger the title) Ours brings in over 25 grand a week on Sunday collection, not to mention what weekly masses bring in, or other beg-a-thons such as "fund for a new floor in the rectory kitchen" or the "fund for the convent windows" which look newer than the ones in my house.
The other priest left and to god knows where, when he witnessed my girlfriends father shoot himself in the head on his front lawn. (they live across the street from the church)

My mom always laughs when she thinks of any church going folk. "they are all about it in church, but will flip you the bird and cuss you out in the bakery parking lot after services when you get to the parking spot before them."

That about sounds right to me too.

Everyone masturbates...and its healthy.. as a male you won't want protate cancer would you?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:54 am    Post subject:  

Julia wrote:
The Man wrote:

But my priest touched me because it was for my own good.



We had 2 in our parish when I was in grade school. One was the Monsignor (you seem to earn that title when you are in a rich parish, the more money you bring in, the bigger the title) Ours brings in over 25 grand a week on Sunday collection, not to mention what weekly masses bring in, or other beg-a-thons such as "fund for a new floor in the rectory kitchen" or the "fund for the convent windows" which look newer than the ones in my house.
The other priest left and to god know where, when he witnessed my girlfriends father shoot himself in the head on his front lawn. (they live across the street from the church)

My mom always laughs when she thinks of any church going folk. "they are all about it in church, but will flip you the bird and cuss you out in the bakery parking lot after services when you get to the parking spot before them."

That about sounds right to me too.

Everyone masturbates.



The Catholic Church has way more money than it has any use for, and that disgusts me.

I'm also sure that Jesus said "money has no place in my father's home" or something to that effect.

I have no problem giving money to charities, but a church asking for money for things that aren't donating to charity or helping out people who actually could use it for the sake of their health is deplorable.

Edit: Everyone Masturbates is going to be the next book I write.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:56 am    Post subject:  

It's said it's why priests and nuns are not allowed to marry. That money would have to support their families.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:56 am    Post subject:  

Julia wrote:
Everyone masturbates...and its healthy.. as a male you won't want prostate cancer would you?

i eat enough bacon that diddlin' cancels out the benefits
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