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The 'Soup and Freedom of Speech
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Serpiente
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:05 am Post subject:

The 'Soup further solidifies my belief that Freedom of Speech doesn't exists.

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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:35 am Post subject:

Quote:

The 'Soup further solidifies my belief that Freedom of Speech doesn't exists.

http://www.youtube.com/v/JuZyOdgqCqI

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Serpiente
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:19 am Post subject:

I actually didn't want to dive in a debate, but I guess I should go at it despite of knowing that I might just create one hell of a fuss and nerd rage.

As much as I didn't wanted to start up like this, I see no better way to reinforce my point:-

Ravi Singh wrote:

I respect their right to speech,

But correct me if I'm wrong here (and I'm not being sarcastic, I truly AM unsure) --- Didn't you just made a rule which restricts others from practicing their right to speech (via Signature)? If that's true, I guess the "Free Speech" propaganda ended just there.

And this destroyed Free Speech right there because saying this --- "While the administration of The Snake Soup forums will be respecting everybody's free speech on these forums, there must be rules to make sure that this right is not being abused. There must be some control over abuse." is like saying --- "You have the right to free speech.... after I restrict your freedom and constrain your speech as much as I want". I have no personal quarrel with Ravi, but he is being politically (in)correct.

Isn't exactly this what authoritarians, Muslims etc do to sabotage "Free" from Free Speech? I'm sorry to give a long ass bloody rant here. Free Speech, as much as I want to believe in it, is just a wishful fantasy. It doesn't exists (at least not in it's pure form). IRL, let's see how much Free Speech is twisted and mangled beyond repair to remove "Free" from Free speech --- Speech containing copyrights infringement. Perjury. Defamation. Threats. Blackmailing. Verbal Abuse. Incitement to Riot. Contempt of Court. Company and Military secrets. Treason. "Persuading and Enticing" a person under 18 years of age to engage in sexual activity. And plenty other such acts constitutes a criminal offense and ARE restricted. Just like burning Quran and being blasphemous constitutes an offense punishable by beheading (for Muslims).

And this is not just limited to IRL, but to intrawebz too. And as this recent drama clearly showed, on 'Soup too. What I about to say may sound like I’m trying to look down of you guys (but I’m not), but mark my words here --- But if someone starts repeated, intrusive or unwanted words that are intended to adversely affect the safety, security or privacy of another (which include all of you ‘Soupers), regardless of the relationship between us, you won’t just stop, sit back, smoke a cigar, and not give a damn.

We all loose our tempers. It’s natural. I can show many places where all of us so-called “free speech lovin' tough bastard” lost our cool and tempers which led to one another deterred from his liberty to express his opinion because out of fear (or annoyance, immaturity, assholery, faggotery etc) of another. Goddamn (free speech abolishing) deterrence right there for ya.

Hell, at times (tempers are lost) over things that’s hardly serious. And here's where another mutilation of Free Speech begins (even when there's no "rules" which mutilated the hell out of it in the first place) --- As soon as someone acts childish, uses speech that intrudes another's privacy and/or does something (like harassment), tempers are lost. When tempers are lost, the individual who is being harassed will restricts the (harasser's harmful) speech through harass. Each side will be pissed off at one another and both will try hard to restrict Freedom of Speech (because it adversely affect another).

Ravi Singh wrote:

You people aren't using bullets. You people are using words. Thus the only way it'll stop is if one of you lets it go and stops typing."

I disagree with the man, here. The power of words is much greater than bullets. The good ol' "Pen is mightier than sword" quote is way true for this. It caused revolution all by itself. Words had successful destroyed words on the 'Soup alone (and each of us deterred one another from mind-fucking the hell out of one another much like lawyers is a concrete proof of this). And when certain 'Soup member found that she(/he) was being continuously harassed and despite of trying the hardest, the harassment weren't stopping, that particular user used the harassment to ward off harassment. Used venom to fight venom. And considering how the 'Soup has become more driven by "rules" due to which that mindless intrusion of privacy and the harassment has stopped, I'd say it was quite a success.

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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:52 am Post subject:

I decided to split this thread from the other one as this seems to be stemmed from a recent event, not our forum doctrine.

Let's get something straight here: property should triumph everything else. If I do not allow people to smoke inside of my house, does that necessarily mean that I am for strict laws against them? No. Not at all. It's just that it's my house and I personally can't stand smoke of any sort but you can go ahead and go someplace else.

Speech is very similar: yes, there is a restriction here (though I think it's very liberal here compared to most forums) but that's because this is my property. I essentially can ban anyone for any reason at all and it still doesn't necessarily mean I'm against free speech because banning you from my property does not necessarily shut you up (you can start your own blog, for example, and rant). However, I want this place to be filled with discussions of all sorts so I try to be as least restrictive as possible.

Now on the subject of the new rules, relax. I'm working on the third reform. It's going to be fucking awesome.

Serpiente wrote:

But if someone starts repeated, intrusive or unwanted words that are intended to adversely affect the safety, security or privacy of another (which include all of you ‘Soupers), regardless of the relationship between us, you won’t just stop, sit back, smoke a cigar, and not give a damn.

I don't smoke. But trust me, for the most part, I really do not give a fuck.

Serpiente wrote:

We all loose our tempers. It’s natural. I can show many places where all of us so-called “free speech lovin' tough bastard” lost our cool and tempers which led to one another deterred from his liberty to express his opinion because out of fear (or annoyance, immaturity, assholery, faggotery etc) of another. Goddamn (free speech abolishing) deterrence right there for ya.

What?

Serpiente wrote:

And here's where another mutilation of Free Speech begins (even when there's no "rules" which mutilated the hell out of it in the first place) --- As soon as someone acts childish, uses speech that intrudes another's privacy and/or does something (like harassment), tempers are lost. When tempers are lost, the individual who is being harassed will restricts the (harasser's harmful) speech through harass. Each side will be pissed off at one another and both will try hard to restrict Freedom of Speech (because it adversely affect another).

Uh, no.

The right to speech is a negative liberty; it's not something that can be given to you, it's something that is left alone for you to utilize. What your claiming is preferred speech in which case "harassment" is seen as somehow "less" of a speech than anything else. Harassment is free speech!

Serpiente wrote:

If I were to shoot you with a gun, it's entirely possible that you'll be dead. What someone typed and posted on an internet forum doesn't quite have that effect.

Serpiente wrote:

And considering how the 'Soup has become more driven by "rules" due to which that mindless intrusion of privacy and the harassment has stopped, I'd say it was quite a success.

Have you been living under a rock for the past two weeks? Despite the rules we've seen an increase in alleged "harassment" and "intrusion of privacy." You're actually one of the few who has expressed negativity towards the new temporary regulations... which is good, because I thought I was the only one!

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Zerim
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:56 am Post subject:

Serpiente wrote:

You are getting philosophical. You are right, "Free" speech isn't "free" in the true meaning of the word, but it's set up so that it's only 100% free if it doesn't directly effect some other thing. Of course one can question how "direct" an effect must be to be considered "direct", and truly there is way to determine such things, but at the same time, rules and restrictions will always be necessary to keep a society that works with any system other than forced hierarchy. The Soup utilizes the "Free speech" concept that is currently in use (although in a flawed fashion) in the United States, and if you have a problem with the concept, you are free to come up with something that works better and present it. The human mind will always accept something that works better, so no worries.

To give an example of where the "freedom" ends (again, yes I know, the simple fact that the "freedom" ends at some point shows that it's not true freedom), take a court room. Now in the court you are free to speak... freely, no problems. But if you don't stop speaking after you've said what you've said, or if you randomly start shouting while others are speaking, you will get a warning, and eventually you will be forced out of the room or something similar will happen. Likewise, when people post random stuff that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, or when they double post, or do other kinds of shit that disturb the discussion environment, big brother hits them on the head with the banhammer.

But we do have freedom of speech in that you are not restricted in terms of WHAT you can talk about. All topics are welcome, and all are free to express their views on any topic, whatever their views may be.

Serpiente wrote:

Ravi Singh wrote:

You people aren't using bullets. You people are using words. Thus the only way it'll stop is if one of you lets it go and stops typing."

No, words only have power if YOU give it to them. If someone shoots a bullet at you, you cannot avoid the damage just by not caring about it (except maybe if you're Neo in the Matrix), but if someone says, "Hey man, you are an idiot!" it is completely up to you whether or not you will get offended by that.

If the person keeps telling you you are an idiot, and if you don't care, even if they don't give up after a while, it doesn't mean anything. Because the internet is not real world, it's not enough for the sender to send his message, the person on the receiving end also has to choose to view that message. So if you had a "fan" who was daily sending you messages about how much of an idiot you are, you could just not open his messages, or just block him (a feature that the Soup does not have, but could easily get, I would guess, if people wanted it).

0nfio
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:21 pm Post subject:

This reminds me of something.

http://www.youtube.com/v/F8SmsrP7QQk

Abstraction meets reality.

7224
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:22 pm Post subject:

Mathis wrote:

This reminds me of something.

http://www.youtube.com/v/F8SmsrP7QQk

Abstraction meets reality.

This is why you should never leave the soup again. Very Happy

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0nfio
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:28 pm Post subject:

[Logs out.]

7224
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:32 pm Post subject:

Haa! Well, to eat would be okay...among a few other things.

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Serpiente
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:09 am Post subject:

I can foresee myself getting over self-explanatory (circular reasoning).

Quote:

You are getting philosophical.

More of curious (and yes, a bit paranoid), to be honest. I actually wanted to spell this out for a long time, from this, and after seeing what happened to this place, I decided to go at Free Speech whether it’s IRL and/or on ‘Soup. It provided a good catalyst.

Quote:

Let's get something straight here: property should triumph everything else. If I do not allow people to smoke inside of my house, does that necessarily mean that I am for strict laws against them? No. Not at all. It's just that it's my house and I personally can't stand smoke of any sort but you can go ahead and go someplace else.

Speech is very similar: yes, there is a restriction here (though I think it's very liberal here compared to most forums) but that's because this is my property. I essentially can ban anyone for any reason at all and it still doesn't necessarily mean I'm against free speech because banning you from my property does not necessarily shut you up (you can start your own blog, for example, and rant). However, I want this place to be filled with discussions of all sorts so I try to be as least restrictive as possible.

I have no problem with you practicing your right to control your property. My point? Well, to quote ya --- "After being in so many forums and being subdued to rules I found restrictive I tried to establish a haven of sorts that promotes freedom of speech; this includes speech I personally disagree with."

I think that what's happening here is same as what you thought happening on previous forums, becoming restrictive. ‘Soup was suppose to be a haven that promotes freedom of speech, how can you have that when there are imposing more and more rules for restrictions?

To match it up with your smokers analogy, this is what’s happening --- (Hypothetically, suppose) You created a separate smoking area (haven) for smokers where they are free to smoke and are not restricted. Yet, every now and then, restrictions are imposed on them to an extent where their liberty (on that particular place) is robbed from them.

Quote:

Now on the subject of the new rules, relax. I'm working on the third reform. It's going to be fucking awesome.

Somehow I doubt it. And I really want to spell out my reasons (but I won’t). I’m doubtful that new rules and restrictions will help.

Quote:

The right to speech is a negative liberty; it's not something that can be given to you, it's something that is left alone for you to utilize. What your claiming is preferred speech in which case "harassment" is seen as somehow "less" of a speech than anything else. Harassment is free speech!

And I agree with you. Harassment is free speech (that’s why I listed it on the list on restricted forms of free speech). And it doesn’t matter if they are negative or positive. I was only giving the classic “Freedom for the pike is death for the minnows” kinda’ rant.

Quote:

You're actually one of the few who has expressed negativity towards the new temporary regulations... which is good, because I thought I was the only one!

While I do see negativity, I also see positivity (in fact, more of it). Then again, I don’t honestly care. I was rather curious than being a revolutionary. I’ll let others play that role. I was simply discussing Free Speech, ‘Soup’s policy and dramas provided a catalyst, that’s all.

Quote:

No, words only have power if YOU give it to them.

That power is given to it by default. Communicational influence is a reality, imo. Communication is an efficient and effective, and is a practical and proven, way for behavior change, to get what you want.

Quote:

rules and restrictions will always be necessary to keep a society that works with any system other than forced hierarchy.

I’m honestly not concerned with rules and restrictions, but rather the extent, magnitude of those rules and restrictions imposed. As we discussed previously, certain extent of restrictions are present by default. But, imposing more and more restrictions can twist and mangle the soul of Free Speech.

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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:56 pm Post subject:

For the most part we agree. Just some minor differences:

Serpiente wrote:

I think that what's happening here is same as what you thought happening on previous forums, becoming restrictive.

No, most forums start off restrictive. Most forums ban offtopic straying (ie: a thread that starts about hair turns into pizza would be "offtopic" and locked with people involved banned), prohibit discussion of illegal activities, use "sexist" or "racist" language, ban people for not being fans of whatever the forum is based on, do not discourage their moderators issuing bans and so forth. Sometimes people are banned merely for opinions as well. It's not really a reaction to anything, it's just the status quo.

Serpiente wrote:

Somehow I doubt it. And I really want to spell out my reasons (but I won’t). I’m doubtful that new rules and restrictions will help.

Well then, you'll just have to wait and see if you are right or not.

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Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:17 pm Post subject:

SamTheDamn wrote:

Your entire post would have been respectable had you just taken out everything I quoted.

-Sam says something absurd without exposition
-Zerim responds accordingly
-Sam: "OH OOOOOOOOKAY. I DIDNT WANT TO GET INTO THIS BUT WHAAAAAAAATEVER."

Don't act like you were dragged into this argument. You dragged yourself into this argument when you made that first post.

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Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:48 am Post subject:

This site is better than most, some forums even censor swear words.

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Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:55 am Post subject:

I &#@!@#^ love saying cuss words!

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Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:21 am Post subject:

It's better than Metal Gear online, you can't even say the word "Joint" on that!
Or Kill
Or gay
Or bastard, despite it being in some Codec Dialogue in the actual online game.

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