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Kinsoku Jiko
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 Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:22 am Post subject:
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| John wrote: | | The environments have become more like obstacle courses rather than a living breathing jungles/destroyed cities/military complexes etc. |
John speaks Wisdom. Wise Wisdom.
There's things like the pottery in MGS4 that when you kick over while walking slowly, guards will be all like "!" and investigate... I didn't know about this since my 5th playthough, I never ran into that shit once by accident. I had to do it on purpose.
In Peace Walker, using a smoke grenade is pretty much a ticket to run wherever the fuck you want. They're far overpowered, I mean, the search team on the beginning of the second mission, if you throw it accurately and fast enough, you can catch them all, and pretty much run that way. I know there's a shorter way behind you, but when they can't even run OUT of the smoke that's just...
Also, PW2 is likely coming out on the next gen PSP whatever it'll be, so it'll need to have a physics engine.
Infact, what happened to MGS having those moments where you're all "Fuck yes!!!" Like rolling 1 person while jumping off a ledge, then coming down directly ontop of another, or defusing a bomb the split second before a guard turns around, or having to use weapons as a last resort? What happened to having to hold a weapon just to feel safe in case of alert?
I was playing MGS2 a few days ago, for the first time in a long long time, I was on the srut d-e connecting bridge, I think, it has a Cypher and a guard that goes down the stairs at regular intevals, I was holding my only weapon at hand, the Socom, to make myself feel safer and more prepared. I decided to bolt it at the last second, the Cypher being underneath my level, as I ran, the guard came back up the stairs. I couldn't stand still because the camera was coming back up directly where I was, and I couldn't just run forward because the guard was about to turn around. In a scared split second decision, I held L1, tapped square 5 times, killing him and saving myself at the last moment. As soon as I went around the corner I just stood there pondering if what I did was the right thing, or if I could have hung over anything, or if I could have run backwards at the point I realised I needed to do something.
I still feel really guilty about it, actually. I don't know why.
That's the kind of MGS that's missing. Human life is not valued in MGS4, meaning shooting everyone is much easier, the toned down gameplay on MPW due to age restrictions makes it feel so... "Video Game".
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Abel
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| Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:38 am Post subject:
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| Kinsoku Jiko wrote: | | There's things like the pottery in MGS4 that when you kick over while walking slowly, guards will be all like "!" and investigate... I didn't know about this since my 5th playthough, I never ran into that shit once by accident. I had to do it on purpose. |
That happened to me quite often.
I also don't think physics are a big problem of MGS4.
I think we all should also consider that this was Kojima's first next gen video game. |
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Ravi Singh
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| Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:59 pm Post subject:
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| Keep it Classy wrote: | | I think we all should also consider that this was Kojima's first next gen video game. |
This is a pretty dumb excuse.
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John
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| Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:25 pm Post subject:
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| John wrote: | | GTAIV was Rockstar North's first next-gen game. |
They should have gotten their shit together to meet the standard.
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Abel
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| Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:43 am Post subject:
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| Ravi Singh wrote: | | Keep it Classy wrote: | | I think we all should also consider that this was Kojima's first next gen video game. |
This is a pretty dumb excuse. |
Wasn't supposed to be an excuse.
| John wrote: | | MGS2 was Kojima Production's first "next-gen" game. |
I'm talking about the current gen.
I don't really like defending MGS4 but I don't see why having mediocre physics is such a big problem.
Nowadays there are still a fuckton of games with physics like that. |
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John
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| Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:50 am Post subject:
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| Keep it Classy wrote: | | I'm talking about the current gen. |
Compare MGS1 to MGS2. The jump in technology is obvious, even excluding the graphics.
MGS4 should have been this gen's equivalent.
Instead, it's Snake Eater but shinier and with less depth.
| Keep it Classy wrote: | | Nowadays there are still a fuckton of games with physics like that. |
That doesn't make it okay. Physics should be a standard.
Realistic graphics don't mean anything if everything else is unrealistic (ie milk crates not moving when you shoot them.)
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Abel
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| Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:37 pm Post subject:
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| Quote: | | Compare MGS1 to MGS2. The jump in technology is obvious, even excluding the graphics. |
I understand that but I still don't get how MGS4's technology was a let down.
| Quote: | | MGS4 should have been this gen's equivalent. |
It has amazing graphics, AMAZING character models etc.
The only problems I'd consider worth mentioning are the cheap textures on ACT2.
| Quote: | | Instead, it's Snake Eater but shinier and with less depth. |
Less depth? How so, you mean stuff like shooting off someone's radio?
| Quote: | | That doesn't make it okay. Physics should be a standard. |
But MGS4 has physics, and Half Life 2 physics are not a standard yet.
Infact, the only reason HL2 had such amazing physics wasn't to show how technology progressed, they simply wanted to use these physics as a puzzle element.
No offense man, but being such a sucker for physics sounds like you're a little spoiled.
| Quote: | | Realistic graphics don't mean anything if everything else is unrealistic (ie milk crates not moving when you shoot them.) |
....Really?
I guess, each to his own. |
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Kinsoku Jiko
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| Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:01 pm Post subject:
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| Keep it Classy wrote: | | Quote: | | Compare MGS1 to MGS2. The jump in technology is obvious, even excluding the graphics. |
I understand that but I still don't get how MGS4's technology was a let down. |
In my opinion on the subject, there was nothing significantly more advanced in MGS4's system. Where as the jump from 1-2 you could destroy individual scenery aspects, you could watch ice melt, you could hold up guards, you could shoot pipes along walls and ceiling, Fire extinguishers, the search teams actually searched...
3-4? Well... Over the Shoulder... Flipping a guard over while you choke them...
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Instead, it's Snake Eater but shinier and with less depth. |
Less depth? How so, you mean stuff like shooting off someone's radio? |
No, there's alot of features taken out of MGS4, like original gameplay. It's become, as John said, an Obstacle coarse.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | That doesn't make it okay. Physics should be a standard. |
But MGS4 has physics, and Half Life 2 physics are not a standard yet.
Infact, the only reason HL2 had such amazing physics wasn't to show how technology progressed, they simply wanted to use these physics as a puzzle element. |
This is something I do agree with. But I dismiss MGS4 for it anyway, because it should have featured more interactive environments.
| Quote: | | No offense man, but being such a sucker for physics sounds like you're a little spoiled. |
If you're going to have cans that can fly around rooms after being shot, they may as well do it realistically.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Realistic graphics don't mean anything if everything else is unrealistic (ie milk crates not moving when you shoot them.) |
....Really?
I guess, each to his own. |
[/quote]
It decays the suspense of disbelief for most. I mean, say, if the computers in the later areas of Portal couldn't be moved, you'd feel "Hmm, why can't I move this with my amazing portal gun? This must be quite lazy design here." not "Oh, I guess they just used super glue or something."
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Abel
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:18 am Post subject:
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| Quote: | In my opinion on the subject, there was nothing significantly more advanced in MGS4's system. Where as the jump from 1-2 you could destroy individual scenery aspects, you could watch ice melt, you could hold up guards, you could shoot pipes along walls and ceiling, Fire extinguishers, the search teams actually searched...
3-4? Well... Over the Shoulder... Flipping a guard over while you choke them... |
I agree and I said that MGS2 is probably the best MGS on this subject out there.
And MGS1 only had the destructible walls.
But I personally never had a problem with MGS4 lacking these things.
| Quote: | | No, there's alot of features taken out of MGS4, like original gameplay. |
What do you mean with original gameplay?
| Quote: |
This is something I do agree with. But I dismiss MGS4 for it anyway, because it should have featured more interactive environments. |
Okay, it's just the very first time I heard that somebody really missed shit like this in MGS4 and it seems odd to me because I never had a problem with that.
| Quote: | | If you're going to have cans that can fly around rooms after being shot, they may as well do it realistically. |
I would even be ok with cans that can't be moved at all.
| Quote: | | It decays the suspense of disbelief for most. I mean, say, if the computers in the later areas of Portal couldn't be moved, you'd feel "Hmm, why can't I move this with my amazing portal gun? This must be quite lazy design here." not "Oh, I guess they just used super glue or something." |
Yes but in Portal it is much more important than in MGS4, the video John posted for example, you can't shoot over bottles, why is that such a huge problem to people ITT?
I am seriously curious, were you really playing the game with a smile on your face and when you realized you can't shoot bottles you got pissed? |
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John
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:08 am Post subject:
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| Keep it Classy wrote: | I agree and I said that MGS2 is probably the best MGS on this subject out there.
And MGS1 only had the destructible walls. |
MGS1 was a PS1 game. The game looked amazing for its time.
MGS2 looked amazing for its time, and took better advantage of the technology. It added depth to the gameplay, like what Kinsoku Jiko listed.
| Quote: | | Where as the jump from 1-2 you could destroy individual scenery aspects, you could watch ice melt, you could hold up guards, you could shoot pipes along walls and ceiling, Fire extinguishers, the search teams actually searched... |
I liked all of that.
Not only did 4 not advance nearly as much, it removed all of the "little details," besides hold ups.
It even removed interrogations from MGS3.
| Quote: | | But I personally never had a problem with MGS4 lacking these things. |
So you're pretty much saying that your argument is bullshit?
Just because you didn't doesn't mean others do.
| Quote: | | What do you mean with original gameplay? |
Every Metal Gear game took place in a terrorist run facility. Key cards and backtracking gave the player a sense of exploration. So even though the map itself is small, the way those environments were used actually provided a greater experience than just more poorly designed areas.
Also; puzzles. Remember shooting power boxes to turn off lazers? I want those back.
| Quote: | | Okay, it's just the very first time I heard that somebody really missed shit like this in MGS4 and it seems odd to me because I never had a problem with that. |
I do. Deal with it.
I miss it because it added to immersion, and more "little details" that I always appreciated the series for.
| Quote: | | I would even be ok with cans that can't be moved at all. |
No it wouldn't.
| Quote: | | Yes but in Portal it is much more important than in MGS4, the video John posted for example, you can't shoot over bottles, why is that such a huge problem to people ITT? |
| Quote: | | It decays the suspense of disbelief for most. |
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Kinsoku Jiko
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:02 am Post subject:
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| Keep it Classy wrote: | | What do you mean with original gameplay? |
Poor wording.
I mean pretty much a "Jump" in gameplay. Like first person shooting and hold ups in MGS2, or Camo or CQC in MGS3. I mean, they could've pulled anything out of there ass that mixed the gameplay up a little.
Like destructible environments that get in the way of guard's patrol routes giving you more time to do shit like spray a bomb [as an example], but at a "Caution" level, so the guards in the area you caged yourself in will be searching. I just pulled that out of my ass in 20 seconds thinking time, and that seems like a pretty good idea for Act 1 to me.
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Ravi Singh
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:30 pm Post subject:
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| Keep it Classy wrote: | | Wasn't supposed to be an excuse. |
Then what is it? | Keep it Classy wrote: | ...but I don't see why having mediocre physics is such a big problem.
Nowadays there are still a fuckton of games with physics like that. |
We don't want a game that's comparable to "a fuckton of games." We want something better that shines in comparasion to those games. During the development of Guns of the Patriots we were promised things like being able to actually participate in the proxy wars with consequences in the long run and destructible environments. None of these actually happened. Maybe you set your bar of standards low to the point in which even something like Portable Ops might have something to offer you, but some of us don't.
Anyways, sorry for interrupting you. You can carry on your attack on people who don't settle for mediocre.
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John
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:47 pm Post subject:
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| ClickForOutkast aka Abel on YouTube wrote: | I seriously can't believe that this is a problem, I mean you make it look like some major flaw that determines this entire games quality.
Holy fuck man, I can't shoot over bottles, it's like I'm really in 1980. |
lol
While we're on the subject about how MGS4's gameplay isn't as fun as previous games; the camo system is fucking overrated. I got bored with it on my third playthrough. Now, as soon as I get the militia disguise, I just use that for the rest of the act (except for Act 2 cutscenes. It just doesn't look that good.) Now I go for no-kills/alerts on Boss Extreme, with "remember FPV" turned on.
You know what Kojima should do if he ever does an MGS4:Subsexual? Bring back the classic control scheme.
O to CQC, Square to shoot, R1 to ready gun, R1+left analogue stick to aim etc.
People bitch about how the controls in previous games sucked. They didn't suck. They were designed with stealth gameplay in mind. It's like saying Final Fantasy's controls suck because I can't move the character around during battle until I get my turn.
Still wouldn't fix the problem about how previous games offered a large military base to explore (places like Shadow Moses, Zanzibar Land, and Big Shell are all instantly recognizable locations, whereas generic middle eastern shanty towns, generic South American jungles, and film noir inspired Eastern European countries aren't), but I can forgive that since 1.) I like the way act 1 and parts of act 2 looked (3 looked cool too, most of Act 4 was already done, and you barely saw anything in 5), and 2.) this meant to be SORRIDO SNAKES EPIC CROSS WARLD FINAL MISSION!!!!!! And the areas in Act 2 and 3 are pretty big (though in Act 3, you don't really care, since you're too busy following that damn green berOH I MEAN resistance member.)
And they could have made it even easier for us to accept if they made VR Missions/Extra Ops. Just think up a fuck load of fun, inventive missions, fuck around with the enemy placement, add some cool remixes of songs from the previous games (ala VR Missions sucking Metal Gear 2's soundtrack's almighty cock), spread them across most areas of the game, and call it a day. That's what PW did, and it benefited greatly from it.
But alas, like KJ said while we were chatting; the biggest irony of the industry is that, the more technology progresses, the less depth most games have.
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