It only makes sense that a military nation has it's military commander as de facto leader.
Fair enough. I was mainly going on him not being the traditional political figurehead and more about him being a real "commandanté" for his subordinates. In other words and I may be wrong, Outer Heaven was less of an actual nation co-existing with other nations and more of his own personal military unit with the rest of the world being a gigantic battlefield, his role being coordinating the former's actions in the latter.
I realize it's a thin and insignificant difference.
Quote:
I suppose the quote proves me wrong, but Big Boss counts on them wanting to get revenge for their parents or something.
Not really. It's more along the lines of Big Boss rescuing the orphans from a world where wars serviceable to political agendas left them without families (the war these kids hate) and make them into warriors that will be on top of waging warfare within their discretion and based on their choices. At least that's how I always understood it.
And MGS4 proves why it wouldn't work.
To make my position clear, I'm not among those arguing that Big Boss was a hero during Outer Heaven or Zanzibar Land. I'm convinced the old man had gone completely cuckoo by then.
Fuck you Kojima. You ruined another one of my favorite moments.
Here I was playing the game for the first time. I randomly stumbled on this codec convo. I thought "neat! Snake's a pretty cool guy!"
Now it's worthless.
Joined: 04 Dec 2009 Posts: 4685 Warnings: 0
Location: BROther Base MGO Name: JKILLAZ224 Gender: Male
Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 4:58 pm Post subject:
How the hell did Kojima MISS that?! It's part of his own fucking philosophy! Even the Patriots AIs in MGS2 couldn't understand it!
I'm sick of plot-devices in stories where memories are treated like data on a floppy disk. Or how clones can have memories of their templates. Fake memories via hypnosis (like in Ultimate Spiderman: Clone Saga)? Sure. But not like how it was in "The Force Unleashed II", where the clones have the original's memories already inside their head.
What's next? In MGS5 is Snake going to say "who cares about the future? I want my Lucky Strikers!"
Kojima, reboot the series before you undermine more cherished video game moments of mine.
Joined: 10 Jun 2010 Posts: 2610 Warnings: 1
Gender: Male
Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 5:16 pm Post subject:
Yeah, because she knew about ANY of the AI's in existence then. She said in 04' (Shadow Moses 04, right?) that AI's WILL be invented, it was just a matter of time. But not only had they been in the works for a long time, but she herself didn't find out about them likely until MGS4.
Meaning...she didn't have any privileged knowledge, and thus even if they had been invented in the past, it was still common knowledge for people in the tech world that AI was merely a matter of time. It isn't an if, but when.
Given the situation, even with things as they were, it's not so bad. Side note, wasn't the MG/MG2 (one of them) in possession of a non-piloted MG?
Joined: 06 Sep 2009 Posts: 1376 Warnings: 1
Location: Your ass Gender: Male Age: 18
Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 5:19 pm Post subject:
Well... um Strangelove had to research like a bitch to fill the Mammal Pod with memories, so yeah.
Oh and Big Boss acknowledges that the Mammal Pod is no Boss, that the Boss is dead.
The only part that would contradict Kojima's philosophy in MGS1 would be Huey's phrase: "I don't think it's using its brain. It's... using its heart."
Yeah you're probably right. Maybe Kojima wanted to make amends (again) with his next game, but then Konami fucked it up somehow, which would explain his depress- OH SHI-
Joined: 04 Dec 2009 Posts: 4685 Warnings: 0
Location: BROther Base MGO Name: JKILLAZ224 Gender: Male
Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 5:29 pm Post subject:
@The Paroxysm: I like you, but it's veeeeery annoying when I spend my time choosing my words carefully, trying to make my point crystal clear, only to have all my efforts to be completely shit on by people who think they're being clever.
Quote:
Fuck you Kojima. You ruined another one of my favorite moments.
Here I was playing the game for the first time. I randomly stumbled on this codec convo. I thought "neat! Snake's a pretty cool guy!"
Now it's worthless.
Quote:
How the hell did Kojima MISS that?! It's part of his own fucking philosophy! Even the Patriots AIs in MGS2 couldn't understand it!
It used to be one of the big examples of how Snake is more than just a cold blooded killer, and one of my favorites. Now new players will ignore the philosophy and think "BUT STRANGELOVE DID IT!!!!!"
Quote:
Well... um Strangelove had to research like a bitch to fill the Mammal Pod with memories, so yeah.
That's the point; Strangelove NEVER should have been able to replicate something as abstract as the human heart to a machine. That only works if the story is about questioning humanity (like Ghost in the Shell), which the Les Enfants Terribles project and GW/JD (JFK) in MGS2 already covered.
Con-con
Cool Raiden moving without awkward feel Ice Cream Partier
Joined: 02 May 2009 Posts: 6892 Warnings: 1
Location: Palm Springs, CA Gender: Male Age: 20
Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 6:25 pm Post subject:
The Boss just had The Sorrow hook her up with some ghost powers and possess Peace Walker. So the AI wasn't actually a copy of her memories, it was just housing her spirit. Therefore, lawl, literul goast in teh masheen.
Joined: 06 Sep 2009 Posts: 1376 Warnings: 1
Location: Your ass Gender: Male Age: 18
Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 2:25 pm Post subject:
Ronok wrote:
The Boss just had The Sorrow hook her up with some ghost powers and possess Peace Walker. So the AI wasn't actually a copy of her memories, it was just housing her spirit. Therefore, lawl, literul goast in teh masheen.
Case fucking closed.
AWESOME PLOT TWIS- wait, what?
Also, I don't think Kojima intended the players to think OH GAWD MACHINE WITH HEART IS KEWL FUCK YEAH. Remember how Big Boss tried to find answers inside the Mammal Pod and got a "What is it, Jack?", "Don't do it, Jack!" Useless and not heartful at all if you ask me. Strangelove even struggles to record that moment into the machine in vain. Remember the tapes.
And when Peace Walker kills itself, I think Kojima wanted us to see what The Boss really wanted. Like, Peace Walker is going to fucking nuke the Caribbean, much like Big Boss thought The Boss was going to do with Volgin. But then Big Boss removes all the bullshit, much like EVA clarifies to Big Boss in MGS3, and finds out that the machine is actually going to kill itself, much like he found out The Boss' true intentions in MGS3. He thought he was the fucking hero of the whole flick, but it was really The Boss who was worthy of being called a hero. He didn't want us to think the Mammal Pod had a heart, much like Huey said. He wanted us to realize that The Boss used her heart when making her decision to sacrifice herself.
This is all good, except we all fucking got it by the end of MGS3! Kojima is just recycling a point he already made!
Joined: 04 Dec 2009 Posts: 4685 Warnings: 0
Location: BROther Base MGO Name: JKILLAZ224 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 4:27 pm Post subject:
Dude wrote:
Also, I don't think Kojima intended the players to think OH GAWD MACHINE WITH HEART IS KEWL FUCK YEAH. Remember how Big Boss tried to find answers inside the Mammal Pod and got a "What is it, Jack?", "Don't do it, Jack!" Useless and not heartful at all if you ask me. Strangelove even struggles to record that moment into the machine in vain. Remember the tapes.
And when Peace Walker kills itself, I think Kojima wanted us to see what The Boss really wanted. Like, Peace Walker is going to fucking nuke the Caribbean, much like Big Boss thought The Boss was going to do with Volgin. But then Big Boss removes all the bullshit, much like EVA clarifies to Big Boss in MGS3, and finds out that the machine is actually going to kill itself, much like he found out The Boss' true intentions in MGS3. He thought he was the fucking hero of the whole flick, but it was really The Boss who was worthy of being called a hero. He didn't want us to think the Mammal Pod had a heart, much like Huey said. He wanted us to realize that The Boss used her heart when making her decision to sacrifice herself.
I guess since the Mammal Pod's AI was just based on information and simulated thought and personality, it's not really saving memories directly from a brain. And it keeps repeating the Boss' lines mindlessly. And when she says something that isn't a Boss quote, it's heartless machine talk. It's only an estimate of the complexities of the human mind. It's unable to create memories of its own. It can only repeat the Boss' patterns (OH SHIT CONNECTION.)
The reason for that is because, as a machine, which was designed solely for pragmatic "logical" thought (something we humans are known to fail at), it's unable to see "between the pictures" or "between the words." Look beyond the literal world and the literal facts to see what makes them worth giving a damn about.
If anything, it strengthen's Snake's... shit, I was bitching for nothing.
Alright, you win.
TheParoxysm wrote:
Welcome to Metal Gear Solid Formula.
I thought you were a common face around here, well versed in Kojima-Shit.
It sucked, felt like a recycled drawn MGS3 ending. Highlighting what The Boss did, is something I really hate about MGS4 and MPW. She felt like a tragic hero in MGS3. But in MPW she's pretty much the main plot, kinda of makes you feel she isn't tragic if people want to recreate her. In MGS4, her character is the main reason everything is so shitty, and the world was split into two Big B's side and Zero's because of her will which she never apparently left. I'm saying, if your driving sober and ram into a dirty cop's car to save someone. You'll be remembered as the drunk who ran into the cop car, which makes you more tragic because people overlook your goodside when your were living and never knew the truth about what you really did, makes you a tragic hero IMO.
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