Joined: 27 Jun 2010 Posts: 2206 Warnings: 2
Location: Germany, Heilbronn MGO Name: [Morrowind] Gender: Male Age: 22
Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:43 am Post subject:
Ravi Singh wrote:
Based on your logic, it is. All you see if Big Boss crying at the end. THEN SUDDENLY OMG HES CRAAAAAAAZY!1111111
The "problem" here is that something was not specifically shown or explained. Which is ironic because the biggest issue with Guns of the Patriots besides it being unnecessary was that it explained too much.
But while Kinsoku Jiko has his own theory, I have my own. What's the problem with leaving things open? Why do you want things to be, just like the rest of the plot, be explained? Based on your logic, Portable Ops, Peace Walker and other Big Boss prequels are needed because for some odd reason, the ending of Snake Eater just leaves things too open.
I understand what you mean but MGS3 implied enough to make sense out of it for yourself.
As for MGS4, the actual problem was explaining certain things and NOT explaining other things, such as Vamp not killing himself, Eva jumping into fire, Big Boss etc.
Zerim
Cool Raiden moving without awkward feel in 60 frames
Joined: 04 Aug 2007 Posts: 7999 Warnings: 1
Location: Istanbul - Turkey Gender: Male Age: 21
Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:09 am Post subject:
elman wrote:
So now all the MGS3-4 hate is coming to the Soup too?
"Coming"?
_________________ "We have not yet finished with Solid Snake, despite the fact that I wanted to let him die at the end of Guns of the Patriots." -Hideo Kojima
"Credibility lasts about two cycles of bad material, and then you'll probably never get it back." - Louis C.K.
Joined: 09 Mar 2007 Posts: 98 Warnings: 1
Location: Chicago, IL Age: 22
Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:06 pm Post subject:
My confusion is this: people see Big Boss in MG2 as the personification of an evil bastard who ostensibly created Outer Heaven over his lifetime simply because he is an asshole. It's like you wanted a one-dimensional character. That is shitty writing.
MGS3 could have portrayed Big Boss in a darker, more philosophically troubled character, but it didn't contradict anything either. He was green. He listened more than he spoke. The Boss was everything to him. He was deluding himself into believing war and killing was a patriotic service and that, for the most part, his superiors were honest with him. The Snake Eater mission crushed everything he felt was real, stable, and lasting. War, politics, love....everything became a fleeting memory to him. He let go of everything that mattered.
As he began to travel to different war-torn countries, Big Boss was exposed to even more corruption and manipulation that the American Philosophers perpetuated--in addition to other fucked up governments. Soldiers left abandoned by their countries (ala MPO's Soviet soldiers), war orphans (like Fox), child soldiers, etc.
So...
Big Boss let go of his country, identity, and past affiliations
His trust in nations and ideologies dwindled
He was only living when he was in battle
He realizes peace is not a natural state of mankind, that war is everlasting
His only place is on the battlefield. Other soldiers feel the same so they join him.
He saves countless war orphans and child soldiers. He gives them a chance to fight back at those who destroyed their lives. hence, feeding them back into the battlefield...a perfectly logical system.
By the time of Outer Heaven, he has lost hope in humanity, like The Patriots, and decides to fuck America aka THe Patriots up the ass.
MY perspective (after playing the series) is that he wanted to either collapse America or find a way to destroy The Patriots's countless facilities and systems using Metal Gear. He knew they were planning a spreading their control to the point where the world would NEED to rely on them, so he needed to act.
Plus, he was losing his mind and wanted Western nations to experience what the rest of the world was experiencing...a battlefield every day, starvation, death. Liquid Ocelot said this of Big Boss at the end of the game.
My point is...nothing was contradicted. Play MG2 again. There are many hints as to why he created Outer Heaven. Perpetuating war wasn't the single reason...it was the result of his betrayal and all the betrayal he witnessed wandering the world.
Joined: 04 Dec 2009 Posts: 4685 Warnings: 0
Location: BROther Base MGO Name: JKILLAZ224 Gender: Male
Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:49 pm Post subject:
Son of Liberty wrote:
My confusion is this: people see Big Boss in MG2 as the personification of an evil bastard who ostensibly created Outer Heaven over his lifetime simply because he is an asshole. It's like you wanted a one-dimensional character. That is shitty writing.
MGS3 could have portrayed Big Boss in a darker, more philosophically troubled character, but it didn't contradict anything either. He was green. He listened more than he spoke. The Boss was everything to him. He was deluding himself into believing war and killing was a patriotic service and that, for the most part, his superiors were honest with him. The Snake Eater mission crushed everything he felt was real, stable, and lasting. War, politics, love....everything became a fleeting memory to him. He let go of everything that mattered.
As he began to travel to different war-torn countries, Big Boss was exposed to even more corruption and manipulation that the American Philosophers perpetuated--in addition to other fucked up governments. Soldiers left abandoned by their countries (ala MPO's Soviet soldiers), war orphans (like Fox), child soldiers, etc.
So...
Big Boss let go of his country, identity, and past affiliations
His trust in nations and ideologies dwindled
He was only living when he was in battle
He realizes peace is not a natural state of mankind, that war is everlasting
His only place is on the battlefield. Other soldiers feel the same so they join him.
He saves countless war orphans and child soldiers. He gives them a chance to fight back at those who destroyed their lives. hence, feeding them back into the battlefield...a perfectly logical system.
By the time of Outer Heaven, he has lost hope in humanity, like The Patriots, and decides to fuck America aka THe Patriots up the ass.
MY perspective (after playing the series) is that he wanted to either collapse America or find a way to destroy The Patriots's countless facilities and systems using Metal Gear. He knew they were planning a spreading their control to the point where the world would NEED to rely on them, so he needed to act.
Plus, he was losing his mind and wanted Western nations to experience what the rest of the world was experiencing...a battlefield every day, starvation, death. Liquid Ocelot said this of Big Boss at the end of the game.
My point is...nothing was contradicted. Play MG2 again. There are many hints as to why he created Outer Heaven. Perpetuating war wasn't the single reason...it was the result of his betrayal and all the betrayal he witnessed wandering the world.
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Give this man a medal!
Quote:
Of course they do, John. I just hope this doesn't turn into KPN all of a sudden.
Please. The game's been out for two years. If it hasn't turn into another TUS/KPN yet, it never will.
Joined: 27 Jun 2010 Posts: 2206 Warnings: 2
Location: Germany, Heilbronn MGO Name: [Morrowind] Gender: Male Age: 22
Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:06 am Post subject:
This doesn't change anything, you just wrote down WHY Big Boss has become such an asshole.
This doesn't change the fact that he indeed WAS a selfish asshole.
Starting war in order to get more soldiers, feed them with your own sick beliefs and brainwash them, that's what Big Boss did and this is not being misunderstood or having different morals.
This is having NO morals and being selfish, he never talked about his soldiers like they are his children or brothers, he calls them nothing but tools.
Zerim
Cool Raiden moving without awkward feel in 60 frames
Joined: 04 Aug 2007 Posts: 7999 Warnings: 1
Location: Istanbul - Turkey Gender: Male Age: 21
Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:08 am Post subject:
Abel wrote:
This is having NO morals and being selfish, he never talked about his soldiers like they are his children or brothers, he calls them nothing but tools.
You now realize that "morals" is a human concept that has no proof backing it up in nature, and that all organisms are selfish to a degree.
_________________ "We have not yet finished with Solid Snake, despite the fact that I wanted to let him die at the end of Guns of the Patriots." -Hideo Kojima
"Credibility lasts about two cycles of bad material, and then you'll probably never get it back." - Louis C.K.
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