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A thought on Gray Fox - Printable Version

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A thought on Gray Fox - Nike Schneider - 02-23-2014 05:41 AM

MGSV's theme will be "race." You don't hear too much about it in western media for some reason, but Kojima occasionally tweets about it and these occasional tweets sometimes get translated into English. A lot of Japanese media reported on it, with Kojima telling Famitsu that there will be moments where you have to analyze how someone moves around to determine their culture (why is unclear though I suspect Diamond Dogs may be hired for some genocidal missions).

Anyway, MGSV would not be the first Metal Gear title with race as an issue. In fact, race played a part in a character's backstory in the sophmore title in the series way back in 1990:

Quote:I'm not like you, Snake... My situation is more... complicated. Big Boss might have been just another CO to you, but he saved my life - twice. This was way before I joined the unit. The first time, I was half-white living in Vietnam... It was after the war, and half-whites were being sent into forced labor camps. He saved me from that living hell. Just like he saved all the children here...

Interesting. Unfortunately, this will probably be retconned since I cannot imagine a scenerio with Gray Fox being in a labor camp for nine years (Vietnam War ended in 1975). But who knows. Moving on, remember that Diamond Dogs get settled in Africa when you read what Gray Fox said next:

Quote:The second time was in Mozambique. I was being tortured as a RENAMO soldier, and he saved me again. They'd cut off my ears and my nose...

There's also Naomi's story of how Gray Fox "adopted" her and Big Boss saved the day and shit. Either way, I really do think Gray Fox will be in MGSV. I just hope they leave all that crap about Null behind since that was a terrible backstory.


RE: A thought on Gray Fox - Code_R - 02-23-2014 10:29 AM

This idea has a lot of depth and potential for character development, so I have no doubt Kojima will fail to write a poignant and effective story with any serious complexity beyond some of the usual fan service or a series of cameos.


RE: A thought on Gray Fox - Old Gross - 02-23-2014 12:43 PM

I think it will be interesting to see how MGSV tackles the issue of race. For all I know, in the previous Metal Gear games, the theme of race was mostly just backstory, though MGS3 took it a little bit further in one Codec conversation with SIGINT; BB didn't understand why SIGINT couldn't get into a workplace fitting for his talents, and he said "Well, I think it has something to do with the fact that I'm black." When I heard that, it was an interesting moment that I felt was significant in gaming history, for lack of a less extreme description; before then, GTA : San Andreas included CJ asking his employer (I forget the name & group right now; it was probably some Triad-like group) "Well you do know that I'm black, right? And not Chinese?" Not to mention also that, in the opening moments of the game, the word "nigga" was used, which made me like "Whoa," because I never played a game that included that word being used. To me, things like that felt like a step-up in contemporary gaming, almost like an evolution.

I don't know how MGSV will portray the theme of race; all I can do is anticipate it. If it's going to be gritty, it would be more realistic. I'm not saying BB and his unit should be racist or any of that stuff, though. In fact, in concern to the child-soldiers portrayed in the recent E3 2013 trailer, I'm thinking that stuff that could happen includes child abuse; if a child-soldier is holding an AK the wrong way, the instructor could, like, slap the kid and yell at him like "You're doing it wrong!!" How this deals with race might be subject to perspective, though.....one example might be how different cultures act differently, and in the case of child-soldiers in Africa, children will be brought up no differently from their adult counterparts, and will be subject to rigorous discipline and training. Of course, seeing as the instructor is black, it's not like he'll yell at the kid with "You little nigglet!" or whatever slur, meaning that the portrayal of the theme of race in this game can't be all that bad in case anyone is feeling uneasy about how it will go down.

As for Grey Fox, I personally wouldn't be surprised if he is not included in MGSV, considering all the ret-conning that's been happening in recent entries to the series. But what if MGSV ret-cons the previous ret-con, thereby reverting Frank Jaeger's history back to his original one from MG2? This would make for an interesting portrayal of race, as Frank was discriminated against in his lifetime....plus, his inclusion in MGSV would be a pleasant surprise, even better if his backstory is reverted to what we know from MG2.

(02-23-2014 05:41 AM)Punished Singh Wrote:  MGSV's theme will be "race." You don't hear too much about it in western media for some reason...
I've had my theories for years now, but who am I to say I'm right? "Race" is a touchy issue, though such is more often portrayed in movies than in videogames. But in order for Western developers to portray the theme of race, there is probably some exceptionalism required. One example would be a videogame involving black people, which would include allusions to racism, and so in order for it to go through it would be necessary that the creator(s) of the game is/are black.....because, for whatever reason, it's okay. One similarity would also include, and I hate to bring this up again, Family Guy. Family Guy makes a lot of "anti-Semitic" references, which would cause people to be like "Oh my God that is awful!" But, Family Guy has a large percentage of its staff being Jewish, so once the complainer learns this, he'll just be "Oh, okay then."
Plus worth mentioning is that, often times, themes of race are followed up with sycophancy (for lack of a better description), usually depending on who is writing the medium with which to portray the theme. What I mean by "sycophancy" is that there is bias towards non-whites (in this case); Michael Moore would be the most obvious example, though I think in his case he only likes black people because they're black, plus maybe he's afraid of them (like if he says one bad thing about black people, he's afraid he might get jumped by some random black dude from out of nowhere)....
...but the point here is that sycophancy creates preferential treatment and therefore abridges the concept of equality, and implementing sycophancy and brown-nosing in a medium discussing the issue of race, which is best discussed objectively, doesn't make for an overall good quality product, at least in my opinion. Compared to this, during this moment where we're wondering how MGSV will tackle the theme of race, I believe MGSV will portray it in a manner that was similar to how MGS2 referenced bisexuality and people's sexual histories. It's probably easy for KojiPro to do this because they, as well as the rest of Japan, are not too bogged down by whatever we in the West are bogged down with which would prevent us from referencing race in an objective, mature manner. But, if MGSV uses a familiar approach to portray the theme, an approach that includes encouragement of shame to the viewer and stuff like that, I might be upset, to say the least.

I gotta stop writing these walls of text; now I'm afraid all the stuff I said will turn this thread off-topic. Touchy stuff fascinates me and subconsciously I want to make my opinions known.Undecided


RE: A thought on Gray Fox - THEND - 02-23-2014 05:51 PM

Gray Fox would be a good way to include the race commentary. Though, a man (kojima) from a homogenized nation that is only now embracing other cultures within its borders in a major way will probably either be really preachy really offensive or both inadvertently.


RE: A thought on Gray Fox - Mexican Sting - 02-23-2014 09:01 PM

(02-23-2014 05:41 AM)Punished Singh Wrote:  There's also Naomi's story of how Gray Fox "adopted" her and Big Boss saved the day and shit. Either way, I really do think Gray Fox will be in MGSV. I just hope they leave all that crap about Null behind since that was a terrible backstory.

This so much. Hopefully he'll "leave all that crap behind."


RE: A thought on Gray Fox - Solidsuitlarry - 02-23-2014 09:36 PM

Sooner or later i'm going to actually have to play Portable Ops and Peace Walker so I can see how bad this Null shit is for myself.


RE: A thought on Gray Fox - THEND - 02-23-2014 10:05 PM

(02-23-2014 09:36 PM)Solidsuitlarry Wrote:  Sooner or later i'm going to actually have to play Portable Ops and Peace Walker so I can see how bad this Null shit is for myself.

Youtube it. Seriously. You can probably watch every cutscene online without even bothering with playing that thing.


RE: A thought on Gray Fox - Solidsuitlarry - 02-24-2014 04:37 AM

haha might just do that.

Not in a hurry to play it as i've heard literally not a single good thing about it.


RE: A thought on Gray Fox - Old Gross - 02-24-2014 11:12 AM

(02-23-2014 05:51 PM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  Gray Fox would be a good way to include the race commentary. Though, a man (kojima) from a homogenized nation that is only now embracing other cultures within its borders in a major way will probably either be really preachy really offensive or both inadvertently.
Good way of describing it, regarding both Japan's acceptance of foreign culture & the portrayal being either "preachy" or "offensive".


RE: A thought on Gray Fox - Mexican Sting - 02-26-2014 03:05 PM

I think Kojima can handle it, he did fine with nuclear weapons and child soldiers, so why not this? He's pretty well traveled for a Japanese man.

(02-24-2014 04:37 AM)Solidsuitlarry Wrote:  haha might just do that.

Not in a hurry to play it as i've heard literally not a single good thing about it.

Portable ops was good for the time, when you consider the style of animation and presentation of the story. Gameplay wise it was really awkward, but we were all just excited to have a full 3D stealth action Metal Gear game on the go at that point. The Null storyline is arguably the worst part about it, mostly because it shits on the canon a little bit and makes Gray Fox kind of a weenie. I'd say the cutscenes are worth watching on youtube, It'd probably be more frustrating than anything to try and go back and play that thing now.

Peace Walker's totally worth playing, though. The gameplay is solid, tons of shit to fuck with and unlock, and the story isn't half bad. Don't let these jaded assholes stop you from playing it.


RE: A thought on Gray Fox - THEND - 02-26-2014 03:42 PM

(02-26-2014 03:05 PM)Mexican Sting Wrote:  I think Kojima can handle it, he did fine with nuclear weapons and child soldiers, so why not this? He's pretty well traveled for a Japanese man.

(02-24-2014 04:37 AM)Solidsuitlarry Wrote:  haha might just do that.

Not in a hurry to play it as i've heard literally not a single good thing about it.


Peace Walker's totally worth playing, though. The gameplay is solid, tons of shit to fuck with and unlock, and the story isn't half bad. Don't let these jaded assholes stop you from playing it.

This definitely. It's a true return to form after the otherwise cutscene heavy MGS4. It's level design is the best it has been since MGS1 and MGS2. It does a MUCH better job of continuing the plot continuity of MGS3 than PO does. There are gripes to find like any of the titles after MGS3 but you really could do a LOT worse.

Personal top 5 Tier list not including MG2ConfusedS -

1. mgs1
2. mgs3
3. mgs2
4. mgspw
5. mgs4

You'll notice PO is missing from that list. It's almost Ac!d tier for me. very very close. Had PW came out as a sequel to 3, it would have damn well been near the top. This list is mostly based on gameplay and the innovations in each title. Obviously elements of MGS4 can be found in PW like crouch-walking and better handling of action oriented gameplay (it's actually fun to get caught now).

Play it.


RE: A thought on Gray Fox - Solidsuitlarry - 02-26-2014 09:44 PM

Lol alright guys you've sold me, while I'd heard naught but bad about PO I admit hearing a lot of good stuff about PW, I do have the HD collection on 360 and the legacy collection on PS3 as well as the original version on PSP so I've had plenty of chances to play Peace Walker, just MGS4 left my butt so hurt that I was afraid to actually commit to playing it.

I'm gearing up to play the series thru again however in the next month or so, I play them in order of release so I may give at least Peace Walker a go, at the very least i'll finally understand what you guys are talking about when you mention Kaz and the like.

...just may skip MGS4 as I vowed not to play it ever again and I deleted my save games for it cuz I'm that hardcore!

Quick question, does Peace Walker involve much of the same story faggotry as MGS4?


RE: A thought on Gray Fox - DarthCaligula - 02-26-2014 10:23 PM

I've been trying to decide if I should play PW too. Still not sure. I guess I could buy the HD collection. Maybe.


RE: A thought on Gray Fox - THEND - 02-26-2014 11:23 PM

Peace Walker is very much its own title.

It does however contain a lot of Kojima wierdness. I'd say more than usual.

Story wise it gets off to a really good start. Then it kinda loses its way. That's not to say it isn't well performed or voice acted. It's just kinda a jumbled mess. There are some highlights but it's okay overall.

Good gameplay though. I'd recommend a strategy guide.


RE: A thought on Gray Fox - Punished Pastry - 02-27-2014 06:53 AM

(02-26-2014 11:23 PM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  Peace Walker is very much its own title.

It does however contain a lot of Kojima wierdness. I'd say more than usual.

Story wise it gets off to a really good start. Then it kinda loses its way. That's not to say it isn't well performed or voice acted. It's just kinda a jumbled mess. There are some highlights but it's okay overall.

Good gameplay though. I'd recommend a strategy guide.

Alright, time to pop in the ol' HD collection tonight. I just took one look at the "Cocoon" and the other retarded looking mech's and was put off a bit.

Wish I had someone to play it with, as I got stuck right after the first tank fight which convinced me that it is indeed meant for co-op