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When does the ending take place?
08-17-2016, 06:24 PM
Post: #1
When does the ending take place?
This is something that really confuses me. When it shows Venom Snake looking in the mirror, remembering the truth and listening to Big Boss's message, we can see the Outer Heaven logo on his uniform and on a wall behind him in the reflection, so it seems to be around 1995 or so, maybe just before Solid Snake comes to kill him. But the thing is that then we hear Miller and Ocelot talking, with Miller discovering the truth about Venom Snake and infuriated about it, refusing to go along with this, saying he'll instead raise David to take out Big Boss, and that he and Ocelot will coexist for a while more. So this clearly would be long before Metal Gear, and likely in the current part of the story, in 1984. This might just be a gameplay thing, but after doing the final mission, soldiers on Mother Base will say something like "Whoever you are, you're still my CO." Obviously this means that they know he's not the real Big Boss, and Venom Snake knows this as well, so it's more evidence that Venom Snake discovers the truth at this point of the story.
So does this all actually make sense, or did they make a mistake in the story? Am I getting my facts straight?
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08-18-2016, 09:06 AM
Post: #2
RE: When does the ending take place?
Shit's not finished yo

Suck my fat one you cheap dime store hood
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08-18-2016, 11:07 AM
Post: #3
RE: When does the ending take place?
N313 was Snake's first mission with Fox Hound, so if Miller knows of Snake during thay conversation it's around '95, maybe a few years earlier, but around there.

CANUCKLEHEAD
He's just a prick

I just saved 100% on stress by switching to Not Giving A Fuck
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08-18-2016, 08:24 PM (This post was last modified: 08-18-2016 08:40 PM by DarthCaligula.)
Post: #4
RE: When does the ending take place?
That's what I mean. From the conversation Miller and Ocelot have, it seems to indicate that it's during 1984 as far as I can tell, so that means Venom Snake should know the truth about who is his all this time. Or is it supposed to be that Miller and Ocelot stayed on to keep helping Venom Snake, with Miller still thinking this is the real Big Boss, and then he finds out that Venom Snake is actually one of his best buddies from MSF, brainwashed and physically modified? How seriously should we take those lines from the Diamond Dogs members? I'm really confused about when this stuff with the mirror is supposed to take place. Did Venom Snake spend ten years thinking he was Big Boss, or did Venom Snake find out a while after killing Skull Face, gunning down his infected crew, and losing Quiet, and spend the next 11 years embracing his Phantom Big Boss role?
Or was there a mistake in the story? Afterall, I think the truth tapes state that the medic was altered while in a coma, which is why Zero has to ask which is the real for for example, but the Truth mission has him see himself in the mirror, then we get a time just and he now has his altered face, suggesting that the original version of these events at the beginning of the game just have to do with him being in denial, with all that stuff with Paz being a side effect of his brainwashing and denial. That's another thing I'm still confused about.

Oh, I see what you mean Canucklehead. Yes, I know that Intrude N313 was the name of Solid Snake's Outer Heaven mission, so what I'm wondering is, does this mean that Venom Snake reuses the N313 for the mission setting up Solid Snake in 1995, or is it that combined with the Outer Heaven logo supposed to suggest that it's in 1995? I guess it could mean then that this is right before Snake or Fox is sent in, and that they were trained by the real Big Boss in Foxhound, then afterwords, Miller finds out what Ocelot has known for years, that this was that guy from MSF, and so he gets pissed, leaves Big Boss, joins with Campbell in the newly reformed Foxhound, and helps to train Solid Snake to take out the real Big Boss who's been setting up Zanzibar Land.
I should probably just replay mission 46 again to check on all of this stuff.
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08-19-2016, 03:18 AM
Post: #5
RE: When does the ending take place?
I think it's just bad writing. Personally, the N313 tape doesn't even make sense because N313 was Snake's rescue mission, whereas Fox was on a totally different recce mission that would have had its own number, like N312 or whatever.

Honestly, the N313 thing was just a throwback, an easter egg for the players of the original games. That's the only way it really makes sense; it shouldn't even be there.

CANUCKLEHEAD
He's just a prick

I just saved 100% on stress by switching to Not Giving A Fuck
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08-21-2016, 05:11 PM
Post: #6
RE: When does the ending take place?
The specific scene with the tape is trying to be artistic and metaphorical. It's not literal in any sense.

(05-22-2016 02:42 PM)Canucklehead Wrote:  The actual hero of Metal Gear is the player for putting up with all of its bullshit over the years.
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08-21-2016, 09:20 PM
Post: #7
RE: When does the ending take place?
I just replayed it and noticed I made some mistakes. I noticed that Venom Snake is still wearing his DD uniform, and on his right shoulder I think it was my logo. I saw the MSF logo, but my DD logo is the MSF skull over the Peace Walker background with "PHILANTHROPY" below the skull, which is what I'm pretty sure I saw there. I also noticed that the DD dog was on the door behind him, until he smashes the mirror, and THEN it turns into the Outer Heaven logo.

Ravi, I was hoping you'd join in on this, since it's obvious you've studied the ending a lot. You're probably right about it being mainly metaphorical, but I'm still trying to figure out when this is supposed to take place. Just how long did Venom Snake know who he really is? Now that I've heard it again, the conversation between Miller and Ocelot is obviously in 1984, so that must mean that Venom Snake discovered the truth in 1984, and kept going with this for eleven more years, right?
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08-22-2016, 03:15 AM
Post: #8
RE: When does the ending take place?
Kojima barely knows anything about the original first two; you think he even knows when this comversation would logically take place?

CANUCKLEHEAD
He's just a prick

I just saved 100% on stress by switching to Not Giving A Fuck
QUOTE
08-22-2016, 10:44 AM
Post: #9
RE: When does the ending take place?
(08-21-2016 09:20 PM)DarthCaligula Wrote:  Ravi, I was hoping you'd join in on this, since it's obvious you've studied the ending a lot. You're probably right about it being mainly metaphorical, but I'm still trying to figure out when this is supposed to take place. Just how long did Venom Snake know who he really is? Now that I've heard it again, the conversation between Miller and Ocelot is obviously in 1984, so that must mean that Venom Snake discovered the truth in 1984, and kept going with this for eleven more years, right?

We don't know.

I also agree with Josh that some of the confusion regarding when certain scenes occur is due to poor writing, particularly the Miller and Ocelot conversation.

(05-22-2016 02:42 PM)Canucklehead Wrote:  The actual hero of Metal Gear is the player for putting up with all of its bullshit over the years.
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08-22-2016, 12:07 PM
Post: #10
RE: When does the ending take place?
Probably a result of Kojima's Open-World writing approach where you could tackle different things in any order you want. So to an extent the actual time may be intentionally vague, but we might guess that it could've been intended to be at 'the end.'
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08-23-2016, 04:26 PM
Post: #11
RE: When does the ending take place?
The conversation with Miller and Ocelot is a weird one. After all, Ocelot was presumably under hypnosis during the events of the game. But he only would have been cognizant of the plan before the hypnosis or after he lifted it. But we also know that he had no intention of lifting the hypnosis until Big Boss's plot was finished or Venom found out. This suggests it had to have taken place either sometime before the events of the game but after Big Boss wakes up (since Ocelot was also knowledgeable of Big Boss's goals), or after Venom finds out and the cover is off. Aside from that, who knows when it happened. There might be something I'm missing here, but I don't remember it if there is.

As for when Venom finds out: presumably 1984. He and Diamond Dogs are then eventually folded into Outer Heaven. There's an implied lapse of time in the Truth cutscene, but I think the scene in general is largely just symbolic. Especially given how it ends.
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08-23-2016, 04:34 PM
Post: #12
RE: When does the ending take place?
(08-22-2016 12:07 PM)jdnation Wrote:  Probably a result of Kojima's Open-World writing approach where you could tackle different things in any order you want. So to an extent the actual time may be intentionally vague, but we might guess that it could've been intended to be at 'the end.'

No, it's Kojima not knowing the plot of his own original games. The open world has nothing to do with anything - there's no cutscene that reveals D-Dog to be the mastermind behind Skull Face's plan all along, pulling the strings from inside his fucking kennel if you so happen to beat Op 34 before you beat Op 33 or some dumb shit. The same scenes play out the same way once the necessary conditions are met and that never changes regardless of what's happening in the big open world that never actually has anything happening in it.

Kojima was clearly tired of writing this fucking series, as has been evident for many years and many games in this series, and he finally said fuck it with this one and barely even wrote a story, then tied it all up with more answers to questions nobody ever asked. Why people give him so much credit baffles me. They talk about him like he's some fucking majestic prophet just because he made a few decent games two decades ago.

CANUCKLEHEAD
He's just a prick

I just saved 100% on stress by switching to Not Giving A Fuck
QUOTE
08-23-2016, 05:38 PM (This post was last modified: 08-23-2016 05:41 PM by DarthCaligula.)
Post: #13
RE: When does the ending take place?
I really doubt that Miller knew the truth all along, the conversation suggests that Miller's pissed because he and this old friend of his were tricked and manipulated. Instead, it seems likely that Venom Snake started remembering, and maybe subconsciously took out that tape he had, or maybe some point after Skull Face was killed, Big Boss mailed the cassette to Venom Snake. Anyway, the brainwashing is wearing off, and Venom Snake takes out the cassette and hears Big Boss explain everything. I think it's safe to assume that he then started acting different, and maybe even talked to Ocelot afterwards, and with the truth revealed to Ocelot, his own self hypnosis wore off, then Ocelot tells Miller, seeing what Miller's response will be.

Also, there's something in the ending that reminded me of a question we had about Ground Zeroes. In the ending, Venom Snake flips the tape over and puts it in a different cassette player, and then we hear a sound, and the machine next to it lights up, doing something. The thing is, I saw a video a while ago, and of course I can't find it now, but it showed off a lot of the real technology the game uses, like the cassette player at the end, the Sony Bitcorder, and that machine that lights up. So that machine is actual technology, I can't remember what, and the signal makes it do something, I assume it has to do with translating the signal. It kind of reminds me of a Fax machine, is it something like that?
So remember that tape in Ground Zeroes that's just a sound? It even says "Don't play in cassette player" or something. If you feed that signal into whatever that thing is in real life, will it create a message or image? Has anyone looked into this?
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08-23-2016, 06:14 PM
Post: #14
RE: When does the ending take place?
You're right. I forgot about Miller being held by the Soviets at the time of the hospital events. It's a conversation that only could have happened after Ocelot dispels with his hypnosis, not before.

It's still a strange conversation, though. It tries to set up some melodramatic feud between the Miller/Venom and Ocelot/Big Boss camps, but it doesn't really pan out that way since Venom ends up working with Big Boss anyway. Maybe that's the point: they assumed that Big Boss and Venom would butt heads, but Venom resigns himself to his fate as Big Boss Jr. But the conversation also tries to hint at a similarly catty bitchfight between Miller/Solid and Ocelot/Liquid, but Miller was only ever a survival/drill instructor at FOXHOUND. He played an important role in Solid Snake's skill set, to be sure, but there's never much indication in the series that Miller and Snake were all that close. And while Ocelot was part of FOXHOUND at the time of Liquid's membership he wasn't really in league with Liquid, either. He was duping Liquid in order to dupe Solidus in order to dupe the Patriots. The only one he ever really gave a fuck about is Big Boss himself.

It's kind of a pointless conversation. The only thing it really gives us is that Big Boss's ditching made Miller mad. But Miller still joins FOXHOUND. Did he avoid eye contact with Big Boss every time they were at the water cooler at the same time or what? Furthermore, with Miller firmly against Big Boss (and Outer Heaven by proxy), how is it possible the Outer Heaven Uprising would have even gotten as far as it did? This is a bit of a tangent, but Miller's role was already weird in Peace Walker. It's even weirder now.
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08-23-2016, 06:39 PM (This post was last modified: 08-23-2016 06:39 PM by Nike Schneider.)
Post: #15
RE: When does the ending take place?
(08-23-2016 05:38 PM)DarthCaligula Wrote:  In the ending, Venom Snake flips the tape over and puts it in a different cassette player, and then we hear a sound, and the machine next to it lights up, doing something. The thing is, I saw a video a while ago, and of course I can't find it now, but it showed off a lot of the real technology the game uses, like the cassette player at the end, the Sony Bitcorder, and that machine that lights up. So that machine is actual technology, I can't remember what, and the signal makes it do something, I assume it has to do with translating the signal. It kind of reminds me of a Fax machine, is it something like that?
So remember that tape in Ground Zeroes that's just a sound? It even says "Don't play in cassette player" or something. If you feed that signal into whatever that thing is in real life, will it create a message or image? Has anyone looked into this?

Yeah you're behind the times man. It's an MSX machine. There really is nothing more to that scene than the metaphorical references (Venom rejects his view of himself as a demon, accepts his role as Big Boss' phantom in Outer Heaven, is the guy you fight in the end of the first Metal Gear on the MSX). Everything else has been dissected to death.

I can't be assed to find it, but search around here: https://www.reddit.com/r/NeverBeGameOver/ in particular: https://www.reddit.com/r/NeverBeGameOver..._contains/

(05-22-2016 02:42 PM)Canucklehead Wrote:  The actual hero of Metal Gear is the player for putting up with all of its bullshit over the years.
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