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What's Wrong with Ground Zeroes' Ending? (IGN) (Spoilers)
04-09-2014, 10:41 PM
Post: #61
RE: What's Wrong with Ground Zeroes' Ending? (IGN) (Spoilers)
Genius is going over the top for sure.
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04-10-2014, 12:14 AM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2014 12:30 AM by Mexican Sting.)
Post: #62
RE: What's Wrong with Ground Zeroes' Ending? (IGN) (Spoilers)
(04-09-2014 12:48 AM)Snake_Plissken Wrote:  fuck if I know man, I keep my mind in constant state of flux to avoid people predicting my behavior.

I think everyone probably predicts that you're unreliable. That's why none of your friends ever ask you to help them move.

"When I first played Metal Gear Solid I was but a boy. Then after watching Snake and Meryl ride off into the sunset I was [SIC] suddenly had six hungry mouths to feed and a pile of bills to pay. Metal Gear ruined my childhood."

[Image: foxhoundmg2.gif]
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04-10-2014, 04:08 AM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2014 04:16 AM by Snake_Plissken.)
Post: #63
RE: What's Wrong with Ground Zeroes' Ending? (IGN) (Spoilers)
(04-09-2014 08:40 AM)Punished Singh Wrote:  If you're being sarcastic its a funny jab at the people who think the muffbomb was "genius" in terms of writing and general storytelling.

You didn't even know it was a muffbomb Ravi, I had to spell it out for you. Literally.

It was half sarcastic. I just want an to be tricked into recruiting a soldier only to blow up, and have some kind of gameplay thing where you can listen to the bomb with the direction mic similar to the pacemaker in Ames.

(04-10-2014 12:14 AM)Mexican Sting Wrote:  
(04-09-2014 12:48 AM)Snake_Plissken Wrote:  fuck if I know man, I keep my mind in constant state of flux to avoid people predicting my behavior.

I think everyone probably predicts that you're unreliable. That's why none of your friends ever ask you to help them move.

You think of that all by yourself? (google searches it) nope guess not.

I think everybody probably thinks they don't give a shit what you think, well except me, but only enough to argue that.
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04-10-2014, 04:58 AM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2014 05:03 AM by Mexican Sting.)
Post: #64
RE: What's Wrong with Ground Zeroes' Ending? (IGN) (Spoilers)
Not even sure what part you're referring to. But I used "common sense" when writing that post. But go ahead and do another google search on polygenesis.

"When I first played Metal Gear Solid I was but a boy. Then after watching Snake and Meryl ride off into the sunset I was [SIC] suddenly had six hungry mouths to feed and a pile of bills to pay. Metal Gear ruined my childhood."

[Image: foxhoundmg2.gif]
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04-10-2014, 10:23 AM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2014 10:29 AM by Da Vinci.)
Post: #65
RE: What's Wrong with Ground Zeroes' Ending? (IGN) (Spoilers)
(04-05-2014 05:14 PM)Punished Singh Wrote:  Holy shit, no, that is not comparable at all. For starters, most of the shit you mentioned is there to create a schism between Walter and Jesse. Walter seems to be willing to justify stupid shit that happens while Jesse does not. I don't even think Breaking Bad was as great as everyone thinks it is (Mad Men is superior) but its not at all comparable to Metal Gear in terms of storytelling. Kojima even knows this because he said in an interview that he "wished" he could have made something like it. If you want to talk about stupid shit in Breaking Bad that nobody points out, how about this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...i7u7OwZ8lQ

But it still can serve as cheap shock value depending on how you look at it, i can justify the ending of ground zeroes all i want and you (or somebody else) can claim otherwise, at the end of the day it's all a matter of opinion after all.

And in regards to the second bomb, it was never "genius" but it was smart enough in regards to the villain that they're building up, i don't know, you seem to be very sturdy in regards to what you find cheap or not, or maybe we just have differing viewpoints, after all Mad Men was too boring for me to keep myself interested so who knows?

And nowhere did i say MGS's story was comparable to Breaking Bad,far from it, don't know where you're getting that from.
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04-10-2014, 03:26 PM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2014 03:29 PM by Nike Schneider.)
Post: #66
RE: What's Wrong with Ground Zeroes' Ending? (IGN) (Spoilers)
(04-10-2014 10:23 AM)Da Vinci Wrote:  But it still can serve as cheap shock value depending on how you look at it, i can justify the ending of ground zeroes all i want and you (or somebody else) can claim otherwise, at the end of the day it's all a matter of opinion after all.

All of the justifications I have heard don't check up. There's the "Yeah well wait until The Phantom Pain" argument that ignores the fact that Ground Zeroes was not released as a "Pilot Disk" but a stand-alone prologue. Then there are the leaps of imagination where the justification assumes quite a bit regarding the behavior of certain characters and none of these are consistent. The worst is probably the ones that argue that one should just accept it as "dark and mature" storytelling that makes a character a villain without realizing that, perhaps, its bad writing and cheap characterization.

Everything I have explained in regards to what you mentioned about Breaking Bad is either painfully obvious or hammered in with Vince Gilligan's commentary. The reason why Breaking Bad did so well is because of its obviousness. Based on Kojima's commentary, what we got in Ground Zeroes was an attempt to surpass narrative in literature and film. Instead it utilizes typical horror-film characterization.

(04-10-2014 10:23 AM)Da Vinci Wrote:  And nowhere did i say MGS's story was comparable to Breaking Bad,far from it, don't know where you're getting that from.

(04-10-2014 10:23 AM)You Wrote:  And for all this "Done for shock value" crap i keep hearing, let's bring out the sacred cow of recent television history: Breaking Bad.

Breaking Bad managed to do plenty of shocking things well. Had Kojima wrote the scene where Tuco beats the shit out of his henchman who talks out of line, he would of had Tuco also tie him up and urinate in his mouth, after which he says something about "You talk out of line, you just talking piss." Also Tuco would be missing his ears and while pissing he would explain to the henchman that he sees it as a blessing as the only person he listens to now is himself.

You know, to build him up as a villain and stuff.

(05-22-2016 02:42 PM)Canucklehead Wrote:  The actual hero of Metal Gear is the player for putting up with all of its bullshit over the years.
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04-10-2014, 04:57 PM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2014 04:58 PM by Da Vinci.)
Post: #67
RE: What's Wrong with Ground Zeroes' Ending? (IGN) (Spoilers)
Bleh this whole thing reminded me why i hate online discussions, they're pointless.

I can't say i agree with you but i guess i can see where you're coming from, so there's that.

But would you say were the mood to continue being dark/gritty in the Phantom Pain like it was shown here, would you feel more inclined to say this ended up fitting well within the overall game or not?

I guess i can see why people would find it distasteful (even though i can't understand it) but would your feelings dissipate if the Phantom Pain followed on to showing other "Taboo" subjects?

Because i haven't found people who find the "setting up" of the events for the Phantom Pain done wrong, i think it was done quite well, even though we got THEY PLAYED US LIKE A DAMN FIDDLE, we got nice characterizations (some confirmed in the trailer for the Phantom Pain itself).

Kaz has become the vengeful one and Snake has sorta taken a backseat to the rage becoming almost his second in command, you can see that in the helicopter scene where Snake slumps to the floor in disbelief whereas Kaz is much more actively angry.

At one point in the Phantom Pain trailer (red band) we see Miller overseeing Huey's torture at the hands of Ocelot with Snake nowhere in site.

So wait until the Phantom Pain in your case i'd say.
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04-10-2014, 05:48 PM
Post: #68
RE: What's Wrong with Ground Zeroes' Ending? (IGN) (Spoilers)
(04-10-2014 03:26 PM)I Wrote:  All of the justifications I have heard don't check up. There's the "Yeah well wait until The Phantom Pain" argument that ignores the fact that Ground Zeroes was not released as a "Pilot Disk" but a stand-alone prologue.

I said Ground Zeroes' plot feels like a demo. If it needs The Phantom Pain (which will at the very least summarize what happened in Ground Zeroes for fear of isolating newcomers) to have any relevance at all, it's still not a good plot. It is sold as its own title and thus must be judged on its own.

What I would like to see in The Phantom Pain are taboo subjects presented in a fashion similar to previous titles where it is not used to simply create a darker environment or paint characters a certain way. If "race" for example is used to simply show that Big Boss is now a racist so clearly he's breaking bad, then that's just silly. If there's relevant commentary involved about violent conflicts in Africa based solely on race, for example, that would be great.

As for "setting up the events," I actually doubt that the sexual assault is the cause behind Snake's revenge. Plenty of criticism towards Ground Zeroes seems to be alleging this and I find it dumb considering that Snake and Kaz's business and health were compromised at the end and are much more obvious reasons for revenge.

(05-22-2016 02:42 PM)Canucklehead Wrote:  The actual hero of Metal Gear is the player for putting up with all of its bullshit over the years.
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04-10-2014, 07:09 PM
Post: #69
RE: What's Wrong with Ground Zeroes' Ending? (IGN) (Spoilers)
Damn....all this talk about Breaking Bad is making me feel like I'm missing out on the best thing to happen since whatever.

I know I'm not in a competent stance to make comparisons with Breaking Bad, but considering how things are at the moment, and since everybody's making comparisons, I'll just pitch this idea out there : How much do you want to bet that because Breaking Bad shows certain things, it's okay, and even "acceptable"....but if something else like MGSV or anything else portrays anything similar to what Breaking Bad would portray, it would be "unacceptable", and the masses would get their collective panties in a wad. For all I know, something could be similar to Breaking Bad, and whatever similarities are portrayed in it would still be unacceptable.
All of this is an example of how people are selective, utilizing exceptionalism as a justification for what's appropriate and inappropriate. And sometimes this attitude of being selective gets more complicated..... for example, Grand Theft Auto, despite having already established itself as what we recognize it to be, continues to upset & piss people off. Maybe it's because people still think they can try something against it, but I don't know.

I know a lot of what I'm saying doesn't make sense, but these are just things I notice in life, and I'm just curious if others are noticing these things too.

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04-10-2014, 07:14 PM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2014 07:22 PM by Nike Schneider.)
Post: #70
RE: What's Wrong with Ground Zeroes' Ending? (IGN) (Spoilers)
http://www.salon.com/2012/09/12/breaking...ist_fable/

(05-22-2016 02:42 PM)Canucklehead Wrote:  The actual hero of Metal Gear is the player for putting up with all of its bullshit over the years.
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04-10-2014, 09:12 PM
Post: #71
RE: What's Wrong with Ground Zeroes' Ending? (IGN) (Spoilers)
Been a long time since I've posted. Whatevs.

Not sure what all has been said in this thread, but I'll go ahead and throw my two cents in.

My issue with Ground Zeroes isn't necessarily the tone. I think the actual tone is fine. The cut scenes, direction, and general dialogue are some of the best the series has had since probably the first Metal Gear Solid. There's a polished sense of professionalism in the game's presentation that, after the complete onanism of Metal Gear Solid 4, is refreshing. The problem is how the tone is established and, to be honest, is more or less exploitative. I feel used.

I don't feel used because the subject matter is racy, I feel used because the story painfully lacks subtlety. Rape and psychological torture are pretty big elements in war. In a story that is presumably telling how a man becomes a warmongering Mr. Kurtz-esque cult figure, these are relevant elements that shouldn't be ignored. It's hard to make a compelling case for how a guy's fucked up without exploring how the implications of his life philosophy are fucked up. Skull Face's actions, however, come across as generic half-baked Bond-villain-meets-Nightmare-on-Elm-Street cuntness. Kojima is being two dimensional and middle of the road in places where he could most obviously excel. Why is the guy that so thoroughly manipulated and influenced the actions and thoughts of players in Metal Gear Solid 2 resorting to cheap shock? Is it because he's afraid players won't get it? Or, even more scary, is it because he's not as capable of this sort of progressivism as he thought?

Ground Zeroes is transparent, redundant, and boring from a storytelling perspective.
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04-10-2014, 09:46 PM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2014 09:48 PM by Da Vinci.)
Post: #72
RE: What's Wrong with Ground Zeroes' Ending? (IGN) (Spoilers)
(04-10-2014 07:09 PM)Old Gross Wrote:  Damn....all this talk about Breaking Bad is making me feel like I'm missing out on the best thing to happen since whatever.

I know I'm not in a competent stance to make comparisons with Breaking Bad, but considering how things are at the moment, and since everybody's making comparisons, I'll just pitch this idea out there : How much do you want to bet that because Breaking Bad shows certain things, it's okay, and even "acceptable"....but if something else like MGSV or anything else portrays anything similar to what Breaking Bad would portray, it would be "unacceptable", and the masses would get their collective panties in a wad. For all I know, something could be similar to Breaking Bad, and whatever similarities are portrayed in it would still be unacceptable.
All of this is an example of how people are selective, utilizing exceptionalism as a justification for what's appropriate and inappropriate. And sometimes this attitude of being selective gets more complicated..... for example, Grand Theft Auto, despite having already established itself as what we recognize it to be, continues to upset & piss people off. Maybe it's because people still think they can try something against it, but I don't know.

I know a lot of what I'm saying doesn't make sense, but these are just things I notice in life, and I'm just curious if others are noticing these things too.

I think it's more of the fact that gaming seems to be becoming pushed towards mainstream more and more.

The problem being it's becoming more and more vogue to criticize games for what they aren't (or rather what somebody thinks they aren't) rather than what they are.

Case in point: Dragon's Crown

Now Dragon's Crown is an amazing game, really fun to play with a couple of friends, just a great time waster overall, would recommend definitely.

And then there's....this: http://kotaku.com/game-developers-really...-472724616

Notice how he apologized but yet didn't remove the article in question?

That shows me 2 things: Clickbaiting and more importantly a lack of regret at having posted it (as can be surmised trough google searches).

You know what's scary though? The "approval" the author received by commentators not just on kotaku but on other sites as well.

We live in a climate of political correctness that actually starts affecting people in different ways.

Think about it: When did you ever think you would see people using the words "feminism" and "misogyny" in such a rapidly widespread way?

In the space of 2-3 years, sites like 4chan (especially certain boards) call out politically correct people as SJW's, discussion threads on alot of sites contain discussions about the "sexism" located in the flavor of the month game, "game journalists" call out scenes where vampires feed on a woman as sexual assault that is comparable to rapelay (where you play as rapist mind you), etc.

This is all true, i've seen it mind you, it's kinda crazy.

It's actually kinda interesting seeing the divisions these subjects have created, gamers really have torn themselves into groups, gamers who just wanna play games (like me), gamers who feel they need to rise awareness to issues they perceive in the videogame industry, con artists who take advantage of issues like this (Anita Sarkesian), "women centered" sites like Jezebel that just spew out vitriol into the heads of 20 something naive women and men, etc.

A good example of this "climate" we live in is best exemplified with Donglegate.

I kinda feel like a conspiracy theorist, but it's true, hell it's unfolding right in front of our eyes.

The truth is out there...man Tongue

Edit: I went on a filibuster of sorts not really tied to MGS5 in itself, but more on the general state of things.
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04-10-2014, 11:33 PM
Post: #73
RE: What's Wrong with Ground Zeroes' Ending? (IGN) (Spoilers)
Things definitely have been getting fucked up over the last few years like you say.

I know it seems off topic but this argument kind of reminds me of people on blu-ray.com saying that the rape scene from Once Upon a Time In America should be removed and the debate stemming from it.
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04-11-2014, 05:38 AM
Post: #74
RE: What's Wrong with Ground Zeroes' Ending? (IGN) (Spoilers)
(04-10-2014 09:12 PM)SlograKiller Wrote:  Skull Face's actions, however, come across as generic half-baked Bond-villain-meets-Nightmare-on-Elm-Street cuntness. Kojima is being two dimensional and middle of the road in places where he could most obviously excel. Why is the guy that so thoroughly manipulated and influenced the actions and thoughts of players in Metal Gear Solid 2 resorting to cheap shock? Is it because he's afraid players won't get it? Or, even more scary, is it because he's not as capable of this sort of progressivism as he thought?

This is the best argument I've heard. Skullface isn't particularly well written, or voice acted. There's also the fact that it's probably harder to write subtlety into what basically amounts to an audio drama than it is a fully rendered cut-scene where you can actually see the emotions on character's faces.

"When I first played Metal Gear Solid I was but a boy. Then after watching Snake and Meryl ride off into the sunset I was [SIC] suddenly had six hungry mouths to feed and a pile of bills to pay. Metal Gear ruined my childhood."

[Image: foxhoundmg2.gif]
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04-11-2014, 08:17 AM
Post: #75
RE: What's Wrong with Ground Zeroes' Ending? (IGN) (Spoilers)
Actually, it's a thought I had but really have no evidence to back. I found Big Boss' transition to villain as easy to understand from the beginning.

1) Classic era up to Metal Gear Solid - Big Boss was a legend and a hero who went mad because war is all he knew and soldiers are simply used by politicians and desk jockeys and then cast aside.

2) Sons of Liberty - The above, plus the possibility that Big Boss may have also seen the upcoming threat of The Patriots by indirectly working for them in FOXHOUND and sought to push forward his own ideology instead of theirs.

3) Snake Eater - Same as above but with a lot more backstory and a specific example that may have been the straw that broke the camel's back: Big Boss was a legend and a hero who earned his codename by taking out the traitor The Boss who took part in a plot that involved nuclear weapons. However, Big Boss learned that the American government framed his former mentor, The Boss, in order to squeeze its way out of being caught doing typical cold war espionage.

4) Guns of the Patriots (and Portable Ops' ending) - Big Boss joined a group that sought to push what they thought was The Boss' ideology on the world. He breaks off though because he feels the leader Zero is actually pushing for totalitarianism and ignoring the main issue of soldiers being mistreated and sent to fight bullshit wars. Him being cloned in order to create the ultimate soldier pissed him the fuck off. However, he himself has warped views on the world and does not realize it until years later.

5) Peace Walker - The same as above (minus knowledge of clones) except after joining The Boss' unofficial fanclub and leavin,g he just does his own thing with MSF. The question of nuclear deterrence is brought up though in MSF's biggest campaign yet and Big Boss accepts the idea that he must become a nuclear power for the greater good. He also rejects what he thought was The Boss' ideology, instead considering the idea of being more active "against the times" as a better route.

I mean, I thought it was clear cut but fans still have problems and were considering Big Boss as the "hero of the series" or that Outer Heaven was simply a fight against The Patriots when it was obvious Big Boss had his own version of tyranny. And maybe Kojima knows that and has decided to use easy writing to make things obvious so that people don't try to paint Skull Face, for example, a hero because he seeks to take down Cipher.

(05-22-2016 02:42 PM)Canucklehead Wrote:  The actual hero of Metal Gear is the player for putting up with all of its bullshit over the years.
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