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The Original Project Ogre
07-05-2017, 07:28 AM
Post: #1
The Original Project Ogre
I've been wondering recently, what was Project Ogre.

"Well, MGSV, of course", will some of you say.

However, I'm not convinced, it always was that. I think, I remember Kojima saying explicitly that it wasn't a Metal Gear game. I also remember in 2011 while promoting the HD collection, we saw a demonstration of the FOX Engine in the background. What we saw there featured a lush jungle environment, a Rhodesian Ridgeback and a Child Soldier as what appears to be the player character.

Kojima also stated, that the game would be quieter and more personal and feature family as a strong theme.

While you might argue, that through Motherbase there is a bit of a family theme in the game, I don't really think any of this truly applies to Phantom Pain. Also, early FOX Engine renderings, while they feature military environments and even some soldier with an eyepatch from behind, they don't necessarily scream "Metal Gear" to me.

Here is the Boy with the Ridgeback:
http://www.nowgamer.com/wp-content/uploa...340503.jpg

Here two others, this time with a horse, even:
https://static.gamespot.com/uploads/scre...screen.jpg

http://assets2.ignimgs.com/2011/06/03/hi...7_640w.jpg

And the picture of the soldier, who seems to wear an eyepatch (notice the string on the back of his head):
https://static.gamespot.com/uploads/scal...screen.jpg

So, what happened?
My theory is, that the controversial game that Kojima wanted to make, Codename Project Ogre, wasn't really a Metal Gear game. my theory is that you play as a child soldier in that game and it would have depicted the child soldiers and their master as somewhat of a surrogate family in a controversial move. I don't think it would have glorified child soldiers, but it could have put a more layered spin on the subject. As I said, I don't think the game was connected to Metal Gear; at the most it would have featured maybe Big Boss or Solidus as supporting character and would have been an entirely different take on the same world (much as Snatcher was after Metal Gear 1987 - back when they could still have worked in the same world).

I guess, either Kojima himself, or more likely Konami intervened and wanted him to push the game into a (more traditional) Metal Gear formula, where you play as Big Boss and destroy Metal Gears.

If that is what actually happened, I think it's a shame. Child Soldiers as surrogate family sounds really interesting and also very different from what Kojima has done before and I probably would have preferred that game over what we got (even if I do like MGSV dispite its flaws).

Anyway, these are my thoughts. See ya.
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07-05-2017, 08:49 AM (This post was last modified: 07-05-2017 08:50 AM by Canucklehead.)
Post: #2
RE: The Original Project Ogre
Maybe you could originally have used the child soldiers like normal ones in MGSV, and they later removed the feature due to the pussification of our culture.

That seems more plausible than an entire game vanushing into thin air like a fart in the wind based on the fact that Kojima always overhypes his games well beyond what they actually offer, and the wealth of cut content proven to exist from every previous game he's done.

CANUCKLEHEAD
He's just a prick

I just saved 100% on stress by switching to Not Giving A Fuck
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07-05-2017, 07:39 PM
Post: #3
RE: The Original Project Ogre
Based on what I've read about Kojima and his relationship with Konami throughout the years, I think the idea that it might have started something else that Kojima wanted to work on, but it got changed to Metal Gear, because that's apparently all Kojima can do, makes sense. I find those images of what clearly shows playable child soldiers very interesting, and it's a shame Kojima didn't follow up on it, but obviously this would be an insanely controversial subject, especially since it would depict children killing and being killed, something extremely rare in games (I'm having a hard time thinking of anything but the Russian game Pathologic that lets you kill kids. You in fact can kill kids and rob their corpses in that game, no joke. It's a really interesting game, but also very hard), so I could easily see Konami wanting to shut that idea down, and I can't entirely blame them, since almost no company would want to be associated with that.
Also, the guy with the ponytail so obviously resembles Venom Snake. It had to be Big Boss or Venom Snake. I find your idea of playing a child soldier under Big Boss to be really interesting.

What I really wanted from the story of The Phantom Pain was something about how the desire for vengeance makes Big Boss go more and more over the edge. In the pursuit of getting revenge on Zero, he's willing to do anything, can excuse any act, saying it's for the greater good and all that. Miller would at first go along with this, even convincing himself that using child soldiers might be a necessary evil at first, until he learns that Big Boss himself is actually spreading war everywhere, creating orphans, just so he could then raise them as child soldiers, basically doing what we saw him talk about in Metal Gear 2.
So with his desire for revenge twisting him so much, we see him start to resemble his enemy, Skull Face, more and more, until we reach the point where there's pretty much no difference between them anymore. And rather than this being some new development in Big Boss's character, we actually learn (maybe through some old recordings from back in the 60's) that this has been something within him the whole time, and it's just been getting worse and worse, especially after abandoning The Boss's ideals and deciding that he's the real hero of the world.
It's a simple idea, and by just going with the natural progression of things like this, the story would naturally flow, showing what a horrible monster Big Boss really is, how he's never been a good guy after all, and we'd empathize with Miller, feeling betrayed by someone we thought we could believe in. But instead for some reason we got VOCAL CORD PARASITES.
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07-05-2017, 09:47 PM
Post: #4
RE: The Original Project Ogre
Kojima had codenames for new ip for awhile.

His 'Taboo' project.

Project 'Oni.'

And Project 'Ogre.'

Later on Kojima gave up and said that most likely any new ideas would most likely be wrapped in the Metal Gear label.

Kojima was likely also working on the next MGS anyway which he probably wanted done by another director, but RISING's issues killed that.

So in the end, he probably brought ideas from his cancelled projects into MGSV.
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07-06-2017, 02:28 AM
Post: #5
RE: The Original Project Ogre
@DarthCaligula:

Yeah, I don't really blame Konami for not wanting to create such a game, either. It's a hot topic and considering how Kojima handled Camp X-Ray - I mean Camp Omega - I don't think, it would have been handled that gracefully. Kojima's strength is working compelling philosophical issues into crazy hightened-reality sci-fi scenarios that mixes 1980s action films with 1990s anime. However, I think Project Ogre was something along the lines of a gritty grounded Apocalypse Now-ish depiction of the darkness of the human soul. And mashing the two together didn't really work.

Your expectation of MGSV is spot-on. That is what I was expecting, too. That's what the trailers were promising. However, while what we actually got wasn't at all what we were promised, there is something that is very interesting about Venom Snake as a character. I like how he seems to be a much more warm-hearted character than Big Boss. I think the basic story of someone whose loyalty is ultimately abused by Big Boss is very compelling. Overall I have very conflicting feelings for this game. So much was handled so awkwardly. Why is Miller the only one bend on revenge and he doesn't change at all throughout the game. Ocelot is a guy you just want to hang out and drink a beer with, Quiet is the only one with a character arc, yet also super-objectified. The only other woman in the entire game is also dressed in her underwear (and a figment of Venom's imagination, as it turns out). Skull Face is so bland, the Skulls forgettable, Sahelanthropus frustrating, the buddhies were all spoiled by the marketing, the line delivery awkward, etc. etc. And the cassette tapes are always talked over by people on the radio. It is Kojima's greatest failure and so much went wrong imo.

Yet, for some reason, I still think the sneaking mechanics and the story of Venom Snake itself is so compelling. I think he is a very sympathetic protagonist. Venom was calm, thinking, compassionate, loyal, etc. There are many subtle instances that prepared the big twist. Particularly, how you, despite being the commander of Diamond Dogs, feel like you are still constantly sent on glorified fetch quests and feel more like the errand boy. Or the "Big Boss is watching You!" poster.
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07-06-2017, 09:41 AM
Post: #6
RE: The Original Project Ogre
Yeah, I love the whole thing about Big Boss just manipulating you and the revelation at the end. The problem is that there are good ideas in the story, but they're just bogged down by the dumb stuff. I really don't know why Kojima made it the way he did, and can only imagine that the parasites and such are metaphors for something. I thought the gameplay was great though, a little too easy, but still a ton of fun.
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07-06-2017, 02:30 PM
Post: #7
RE: The Original Project Ogre
I really doubt that "Project Ogre" was ever anything other than MGSV, considering that the only evidence supporting that idea seems to be reading too much into Kojima's word, which isn't reliable to begin with. As far as the whole taboo thing is concerned, I think Kojima was still talking about that even after MGSV was unveiled, so it doesn't seem too likely that the game was drastically overhauled. It's more likely that Kojima overestimated how controversial MGSV would actually be in the end.

When it comes to how the game was advertised versus the actual end product, it was more or less what I expected it to be. I knew ahead of time that A. Kojima would have some kind of twist that turns the story on its head, since he always does that, and B. despite what the trailers showed, he probably wouldn't have you playing as a villainous character. Thankfully, Kojima didn't do what I thought he was going to do(absolve Big Boss of his crimes and paint him as some misunderstood hero who was framed as part of some Ciper/Patriot conspiracy) but the Venom Snake twist was still terrible and exemplifies what I've come to hate about Kojima's stories.

For whatever reason, Kojima is either unwilling or unable to write player characters who make their own decisions and move the plot forward on their own. Instead, he always has radio contact telling the player/protagonist what to do throughout the game, which typically culminates in a twist that involves the protagonist being pawns in some grand scheme. Even Peace Walker, where you play as the real Big Boss after he has his own army, still does this, with BB seeming more like a figurehead and Miller being the real decision maker at MSF. And the twist at the end with Paz and Miller being connected with Cipher, only further serves to make Big Boss look more like a tool rather than a leader.

With Venom Snake, Kojima was able to create a protagonist whom he wouldn't need to show becoming a villain, whose very identity would be a twist in itself, and would give him another opportunity for meta commentary. Essentially, Venom was a way for Kojima to do his standard main character arc yet again, rather than something different, which is what Big Boss going bad would have been. Which is why I don't understand where the whole idea of Venom being virtuous and good natured as a means to show a contrast with Big Boss comes from. Big Boss didn't act all that differently from Venom in MGS3/PW, so what contrast is there really?
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07-06-2017, 02:58 PM
Post: #8
RE: The Original Project Ogre
I'm trying to think if a problem here has to do with the English dub of Peace Walker, and how Big Boss's personality wasn't right in the dubbing, but it's hard to say. We don't see Big Boss cruelly manipulate his subordinates in Peace Walker or raise child soldiers or anything, but he does become more and more obsessed with himself as the game goes on. Really though, the breaking point is when he throws away the bandana that used to belong to The Boss, which shows him rejecting her ideals completely. So in Peace Walker, with MSF, Big Boss is pretty much trying to carry on what he thinks was The Boss's will, to create a place for soldiers from all over to gather, and to not be used and thrown away by the different governments, so both Big Boss and Zero are trying to create a different world without borders, and Zero thinks that Big Boss's military ideas would work perfectly with his own new world order.
After throwing away the bandana, Big Boss talks about how The Boss betrayed him. It seems that Strangelove's AI was so perfect that Big Boss thought it accurately depicted her, and when the AI chooses to die to avert nuclear war, Big Boss realizes that she wasn't who he thought she was, and that what the real Boss did in the end wasn't what he thought it was all along. In the ending speech, he makes it clear that they're abandoning the very idea of ideals or a greater cause, and that they're going to exist only for the sake of war. War gives them a purpose, and they're going to live only for that, so it's pretty similar to what Big Boss says at the end of Metal Gear 2. In Japanese, Big Boss has absolute confidence and authority in his voice in that speech, he's saying this is the way things are going to be now, so he's abandoned The Boss and now thinks that he is the only one with the answers. He's a self absorbed maniac with an army of his own, no oversight, and pretty much surrounds himself with yes men.

As for the medic, he's supposed to be Big Boss's number one man in MSF, and Ground Zeroes takes place only a couple weeks after Peace Walker ends it seems. So when he becomes brainwashed and thinks that he's Big Boss throughout The Phantom Pain, he's pretty much acting the way he thinks Big Boss would act, and so do we the player you could argue, which is why I played him as a stealthy killer and if I was caught, I went on the warpath and slaughtered the enemy. Anyway, storywise, how Venom Snake treats everyone he comes in contact with would show how he THINKS Big Boss would act, but I'd argue is more in line with how Miller acts in Peace Walker. He's got this idealized version of Big Boss in his mind and how he thinks the man would act, but it turns out much different than reality, but at the end of the game, he chooses to give up his own identity and just become part of Big Boss's legacy.

So I guess my point is that Venom Snake acts more like Big Boss in Peace Walker, yes, but Big Boss changes at the end of Peace Walker, and I also think that Venom Snake's actions are more in line with how Miller acts in Peace Walker.
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07-06-2017, 09:31 PM (This post was last modified: 07-06-2017 09:54 PM by jdnation.)
Post: #9
RE: The Original Project Ogre
Unfortunately we'll likely never know what Kojima had in mind for MGSV. Clearly past Chapter 1 the game feels like too much content was cut. Kojima can be very creative, but every MGS follows a formulaic path. That's entirely missing in MGSV.

The child soldiers issue would've come down to killing them, which you can do anyway at the cost of a game over. Then possibly you could play as them for special missions or have a buddy option. But I don't think it was that.

The risky part was probably tackling the themes of race, but Kojima was going to present that it terms of linguistic groups and not physical traits. This could've been a controversial idea, but also an intriguing one. Language is what divides mankind, and a common mothertongue has historically united groups as a nation despite ethnicity or religion as language also carries with it culture. Assimilation usually demands a common tongue. Languages with gender verbs or as in Japan words specific to men and women also shape perception.

In many ways English lacks things that other languages possess and might be seen in an empirialist manner or analoguous to a parasyte that spreads through nations that host it that replaces the mothertongue and influences the population withthe English manner of thought and culture over the course of time.

Now consider Kojima's audience for MGSV. Primarily all English 'natives.' How would they take this message? Would they think about it? Or would there just be kneejerk offence?

I'm guessing that Zero originally was to use the parasytes to make the world all 'English.' Zero himself in MGS3 sounding very Brit and of course the way of all empire building. Fulfilling the Boss' dream of erasing one major barrier between people to unify them.

But Skullface intended to use that against Zero by targeting all native English speakers as according to MGSV all mankind carries strains of the vocal chord parasytes which birthed language. And like Foxdie targeted specific genes, this would target the English strain.

This was to be the new proverbial nuke. And Metal Gear the delivery system.
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07-07-2017, 03:16 PM
Post: #10
RE: The Original Project Ogre
(07-06-2017 02:58 PM)DarthCaligula Wrote:  We don't see Big Boss cruelly manipulate his subordinates in Peace Walker or raise child soldiers or anything .... Really though, the breaking point is when he throws away the bandana that used to belong to The Boss, which shows him rejecting her ideals completely. So in Peace Walker, with MSF, Big Boss is pretty much trying to carry on what he thinks was The Boss's will, to create a place for soldiers from all over to gather, and to not be used and thrown away by the different governments, so both Big Boss and Zero are trying to create a different world without borders, and Zero thinks that Big Boss's military ideas would work perfectly with his own new world order.

Actually, we do see him recruiting children into his army, namely Chico and Paz (yeah, she isn't actually a child, but at the time both the player and Big Boss thinks she is). Actually, I think part of the confusion about what Big Boss and Zero wanted to do is that there were a few different versions and revisions to that story with each sequel adding new plot elements. But overall, I'd say you are spot-on. What I would add is, that The Boss didn't believe in trying to change the world by gaining power and creating secret organisations at all. She could have done that by the end of Snake Eater, but she didn't. After seeing the Earth from space, she actually became a pacifist. After Snake/ Big Boss and later Zero learned of her secret mission, both were disgusted with their own country and wanted change. Big Boss left the service and presumably the country, while Zero worked with Ocelot to kill the Philosophers as a failed organisation, obtain the legacy and form Cipher. For that he invited Big Boss to join, which he did, until he realised, Cipher wanted to just create a sort of world government and essentially repeat the mistake of the Philosophers. Then Les Enfants Terrible happens, Big Boss is disgusted and leaves to do his own thing - not necessarily try to fulfill The Boss' will, but to figure out what she wanted. That is why Big Boss is always so confused about The Boss and whether she was a traitor in Peace Walker, because he honestly doesn't know why she let herself be killed by him and didn't use the Legacy to do something with it.

Quote:After throwing away the bandana, Big Boss talks about how The Boss betrayed him. It seems that Strangelove's AI was so perfect that Big Boss thought it accurately depicted her, and when the AI chooses to die to avert nuclear war, Big Boss realizes that she wasn't who he thought she was, and that what the real Boss did in the end wasn't what he thought it was all along. In the ending speech, he makes it clear that they're abandoning the very idea of ideals or a greater cause, and that they're going to exist only for the sake of war. War gives them a purpose, and they're going to live only for that, so it's pretty similar to what Big Boss says at the end of Metal Gear 2. In Japanese, Big Boss has absolute confidence and authority in his voice in that speech, he's saying this is the way things are going to be now, so he's abandoned The Boss and now thinks that he is the only one with the answers. He's a self absorbed maniac with an army of his own, no oversight, and pretty much surrounds himself with yes men.

Spot-on. Through the events of Peace Walker, he realises that deep down she was actually a pacifist and feels that this betrays everything he believes in - that is when he fully commits to the war-as-a-neccessity philosophie he later adopts by MG2 and which is imitated by Liquid and Liquid Ocelot. I wouldn't necessarily call him self absorbed... even though he cleary does begin to belief in his own greatness and the greatness of his vision. He is probably closing in on a similar position as Col. Kurtz from Apocalypse Now, where he believes that morals have no place in war and is disgusted by the paper-pushing politicians who try to pretend that what they are doing is something noble.

Quote:As for the medic, he's supposed to be Big Boss's number one man in MSF, and Ground Zeroes takes place only a couple weeks after Peace Walker ends it seems. So when he becomes brainwashed and thinks that he's Big Boss throughout The Phantom Pain, he's pretty much acting the way he thinks Big Boss would act, .... how Venom Snake treats everyone he comes in contact with would show how he THINKS Big Boss would act, but I'd argue is more in line with how Miller acts in Peace Walker. He's got this idealized version of Big Boss in his mind and how he thinks the man would act, but it turns out much different than reality, but at the end of the game, he chooses to give up his own identity and just become part of Big Boss's legacy.

That's exactly my interpretation as well. I think Snake Soup/ Ravi actually made a pretty great video on the subject. After being betrayed first by The Boss, then by Paz, then by Miller (not really), then by the so-called inspection, Big Boss is beaten down and in a coma. We learn that brainwishing a doppelganger was actually Zero's plan, but Big Boss goes along with it... and basically does the same thing the US did to The Boss. Venom Snake - as you said - doesn't act like the real Big Boss, but as the idealized Big Boss, as how he believes Big Boss should act. Which is why he doesn't recruit children (instead creating a sort of daycare for them) and why creating a nuke isn't mandatory and actually dismantling nukes is something that unlocks a secret ending.

The real Big Boss meanwhile believes so strongly in his own vision (and alright his possible greatness) that he does off into hiding and does immoral things.

Quote:So I guess my point is that Venom Snake acts more like Big Boss in Peace Walker, yes, but Big Boss changes at the end of Peace Walker, and I also think that Venom Snake's actions are more in line with how Miller acts in Peace Walker.

My point as well.
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07-07-2017, 03:37 PM (This post was last modified: 07-07-2017 03:38 PM by DarthCaligula.)
Post: #11
RE: The Original Project Ogre
Good point about Chico. Paz isn't put in any danger, taught to fight or anything, but she's still a staff member of a private military force, so she sure isn't being put out of harm's way. While Big Boss isn't the one that made Chico fight in the first place, he still allows Chico to fight, and even encourages him to keep fighting, so it shows that Big Boss is fine with the idea of children taking up arms, though at that point I don't think he's reached the point where he'd intentionally create orphans to turn into child soldiers.

About The Boss, I think that if you really look at these games, it becomes pretty clear that the real successor to The Boss turns out to be Solid Snake, someone who never even knew about her until MGS4. Philanthropy is basically what The Boss wanted to make, an organization that operates outside any nation, and pursues peace. Both The Boss and Solid Snake are striving for peace, but willing to kill to achieve that goal, and Solid Snake admits that he's hypocritical in that way in MGS2, admitting that what he's doing is like terrorism. I've said this before, but this is a major difference between Solid Snake and the rest of his family, the ability to admit that he actually does bad things, and the fact that he doesn't feel good about them, how he doesn't try to say "Yeah, I kill lots of people, but that doesn't matter! I'm doing what's right!"

And I have seen Ravi's video, Parasitic Legacy. I think at this point I've seen all of his videos and read everything at this site, but I may have missed something somewhere.
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07-07-2017, 04:22 PM
Post: #12
RE: The Original Project Ogre
Technically, Paz recruited Big Boss, not thw other way around. Maybe. I dunno; was too busy looking as her red panties to hear whatever the fuck her problem was.

CANUCKLEHEAD
He's just a prick

I just saved 100% on stress by switching to Not Giving A Fuck
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07-07-2017, 04:40 PM (This post was last modified: 07-07-2017 04:41 PM by DarthCaligula.)
Post: #13
RE: The Original Project Ogre
Zadornov hires Big Boss, and he thinks that Paz really is some kid. Paz and Zero are manipulating Zadornov in order to do all this stuff and get close to Big Boss. Big Boss and Miller take in Paz after they rescue her from Coldman and since she doesn't have anywhere to go, they let her stay at Mother Base and help cook, and she's happy to go along with this. They think they're just helping her, while she's actually spying on them and waiting for the right opportunity to act, stealing Metal Gear so she has a bargaining position, offering Big Boss the chance to join Zero, and to kill him if Big Boss refuses. Miller was working with Zero for his own reasons I think, mainly he liked the backing and wanted to make MSF big, but saw how he was betrayed with Paz.
I think? At the end of the game Miller says that he knew Paz was a spy all along. I think that he just underestimated Zero.
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07-07-2017, 07:23 PM
Post: #14
RE: The Original Project Ogre
Yeah, Peace Walker was trash.

CANUCKLEHEAD
He's just a prick

I just saved 100% on stress by switching to Not Giving A Fuck
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07-07-2017, 07:55 PM
Post: #15
RE: The Original Project Ogre
It's like Kojima felt like he had to outdo himself with all the revelations of who's secretly doing things. Pretty much every character was a double agent working for someone else, and then Big Boss is just left there like "Duuuuuuhhhhh......." Even Huey turns out to be a double agent in MGSV!
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