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New myth about Solid Snake in MGS2
05-22-2015, 01:20 AM
Post: #1
New myth about Solid Snake in MGS2
Oh yeah in case you have not noticed, I destroyed a myth ten days ago.

http://thesnakesoup.org/myth-articles/my...ving-emma/

(05-22-2016 02:42 PM)Canucklehead Wrote:  The actual hero of Metal Gear is the player for putting up with all of its bullshit over the years.
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05-22-2015, 04:45 AM (This post was last modified: 05-22-2015 05:34 AM by Canucklehead.)
Post: #2
RE: New myth about Solid Snake in MGS2
Based on the angle shown in the final image you posted in the article, the position Vamp holds Emma during the fight, Snake's distance from Vamp, Vamp's own position, and the type of weapon Snake was armed with...

...he could easily have fired a shot into Vamp's head at the correct location so as to paralyze him and prevent him from harming Emma while also ensuring that the round fired woild not have harmed her either.

However, and this is how I've always seen it, Emma's legs being so wobbly and her dumb-cunt inability to swim would have most likely resulted in her falling into the water and drownin had Snake taken his shot.

But truthfully, Raiden didn't have a better shot than Snake, or even a decent shot to behin with, and the forehead is not where you shoot to kill a hostage-taker in the first place because it doesn't guarantee a kill nor paralysis, and thus the hostage-taker can further harm the hostage. Raiden should not have fired; Snake would have been the one to take that shot in a real-life situation.

That's my $0.02.

Also, to clarify, you don't shoot a hostage-taker until the hostage's life is in immediate danger, and Vamp didn't stab Emma until Raiden shot him, which substantiates both Snake's hesitation and my claim that Raiden shouldn't have been the one to shoot him.

Snake's silence over the Codec was probably also an indication of his assumption that, given the current situation, no action they could have taken would have guaranteed in Emma's safety.

Personally, I'm surprised that Vamp ONLY stabbed Emma when Raiden shot him. Realistically, he probanly would have held onto her tighter, and when the 10,000lb concrete whatever-the-fuck Raiden fired that propelled Vamp thirty feet through the air hit him in the head, Emma would have gone flying with him - her falling and landing safely (ish) on the bridge was a but of a miracle.

And on that note, I don't say that Vamp stabber her intentionally as a final "fuck you." He was surprised by the shot based on the cutscene and didn't have time to get in a final jab; he was holding her withbthe knife in hand, and when he got hit, he hooked her by accident as a natural reaction to being thrown thirty feet for some reason by a mere rifle round (which in reality would actually have made his head go forward, not back!). You fall, you try to hold on. That's hard-wired self-preservation right there, and exactly why you shoot to paralyze a hostage-taker, which Snake had a better chance of doing.

CANUCKLEHEAD
He's just a prick

I just saved 100% on stress by switching to Not Giving A Fuck
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05-22-2015, 12:01 PM
Post: #3
RE: New myth about Solid Snake in MGS2
(05-22-2015 04:45 AM)Canucklehead Wrote:  the forehead is not where you shoot to kill a hostage-taker in the first place because it doesn't guarantee a kill nor paralysis,
Interesting, I think I gathered from books (fiction, of course) that you want the bullet where the nose and the brows meet, but admittedly that still carries the risk of spasm. I gather best place is the base of the skull, where neck and head meet, but a lot jerkiness can develop from that as well, as clearly bullets are not scalpels slicing the spine. So my question, where do you want the bullet to hit?

(05-22-2015 04:45 AM)Canucklehead Wrote:  you don't shoot a hostage-taker until the hostage's life is in immediate danger
Aha, so when a hostage is held at gun point, are you supposed to keep vigilant of the trigger finger and gauge its pressure? And if you decide the pressure is increasing and you fire, you explain that to the jury? Just wondering.
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05-22-2015, 12:51 PM
Post: #4
RE: New myth about Solid Snake in MGS2
Where the neck and skull meet is where the brainstem is. Shooting through it is essentially the same as decapitation; the body instantly relaxes and a held gun simply falls out of the hands and the target crumples to the ground like a ragdoll.

Square-on, you'd aim down the face's center vertical line, and between the eyes and top of the jaw. Gives you about a 1" x 2" rectangle to target.

As for when to actually fire, assuming there's a Negotiator around, he'd be talking to the guy and be constantly assessing his mental state and stress levels; there's no way to gauge trigger pressure. The Negotiator would try to talk the guy into taking his finger off the trigger and to point a gun at either him or the ground or whatever, and the Assault & Sniper teams won't make a move unless it's on the Negotiator's order, or if the Hostage-taker suddenly starts to fire. The thing to remember is that if someone wants to kill someone else, they'll just do it. If they're holding someone hostage, they don't want them dead; they'd just kill them if that was the case. The Assault & Sniper teams will keep aim just in case, but they won't fire until the kill-code is given, or if they need to defend themselves or others.

CANUCKLEHEAD
He's just a prick

I just saved 100% on stress by switching to Not Giving A Fuck
QUOTE
05-23-2015, 12:46 AM
Post: #5
RE: New myth about Solid Snake in MGS2
(05-22-2015 04:45 AM)Canucklehead Wrote:  Blah blah blah.

What you are saying is true. In fact, I considered writing this based on actual military procedure for hostage situations but then realized I was going way beyond what was necessary because the game simply "explains" it enough in the cutscene. In the context of the plot, he did not have a good shot.

(05-22-2016 02:42 PM)Canucklehead Wrote:  The actual hero of Metal Gear is the player for putting up with all of its bullshit over the years.
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05-23-2015, 04:53 AM (This post was last modified: 05-23-2015 04:53 AM by Canucklehead.)
Post: #6
RE: New myth about Solid Snake in MGS2
I dunno. Snake yelling "NO!" doesn't really convince me that he had no shot. Snake says and does dumb shit all the time, and I'm more inclined to believe that he yelled it simy because Vamp grabbing her was another bad thing happening. It's not like you call him up and he says "Damn, I don't have a shot! It's up to you, Raiden!" or anything like that.

Obviously, it'd be a dumb fucking "boss" fight if you just watched Snake shoot him, but given the evidence, I'm more inclined to believe that Snake couldn't take the shot because of "Nanomachines!" rather than "NO!" meaning "No shot!"

CANUCKLEHEAD
He's just a prick

I just saved 100% on stress by switching to Not Giving A Fuck
QUOTE
05-23-2015, 05:39 AM
Post: #7
RE: New myth about Solid Snake in MGS2
(05-23-2015 04:53 AM)Canucklehead Wrote:  Snake says and does dumb shit all the time,
Well, I am of the opinion that fiction works because characters or at least one character (it could even be a computer) behave just like that, dumb. Otherwise you are left with no plot. This is a generalization, and of course there are exceptions.
But if every character in a story behaves like a pro or does just right what they are supposed to do, then more than a story you have a narrated manual.
I was approached once by an ex military working in private security. He had managed a client and fixed the client's problem in a manner that was unprecedented -total success. He wrote it down as a story summary and approached film producers and script writers with it as he was convinced the case would make a great film, plus hey, it was real. They all ditched him, told him it wouldn't work. So he asked me if I could make a novel out of it.
I told him well, no. The client's case (it was about blackmail) had been solved to the maximum efficiency, even with a favorable oddity that the assured me was unheard of in the security business. And so I told him it would make a great case study for publication in specialized journals or forums, but it lacked everything that hooks the public looking to be entertained or revolted: nobody fouled up, no one was in a life threat situation, everybody played the role as expected.
Dunno if you have read the novel "Point of Impact" by Stephen Hunter, but there is a total foul up in it that pretty much puts together the hostage situation rules for a sniper team you just described with a character that is a total jerk and massively screws up, in a manner that is totally unprofessional. But gets the story moving nevertheless.
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05-23-2015, 09:07 AM (This post was last modified: 05-23-2015 11:35 AM by Canucklehead.)
Post: #8
RE: New myth about Solid Snake in MGS2
I dunno, that's like in Rainbow Six Vegas, where a three-man team kills 500+ terrorists that are all better equipped than most Special Forces units by standing with their backs against walls and blind-firing all night.

It gets the story moving, but it's dumb as fuck and nobody can take it seriously.

In Snake's case, just about every time something goes wrong, he yells "NO!" So I can't take that as an indication that he actually meant: "NO (shot)!"

CANUCKLEHEAD
He's just a prick

I just saved 100% on stress by switching to Not Giving A Fuck
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05-24-2015, 07:04 AM
Post: #9
RE: New myth about Solid Snake in MGS2
Yep. That's over-the-olympic-top-unrealistic-profficiency. It works in games and gamers can feel just like that if they want, and its part of the gaming experience and the game high so to speak.
But storywise these games usually fall a bit short, they are most remembered by the plot (3 guys kill +500) but are hardly remembered for the story (who was who?)
Wouldn't you say?
I remember another shooter I loved, Black I think it was, in PS2... boy, there was some shooting there.
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05-24-2015, 08:18 AM
Post: #10
RE: New myth about Solid Snake in MGS2
Over-the-top is memorable, but Snake not shooting Vamp just flat-out makes no sense.

If Snake really had no shot, it would have been flat-out said so.

CANUCKLEHEAD
He's just a prick

I just saved 100% on stress by switching to Not Giving A Fuck
QUOTE
05-24-2015, 05:22 PM (This post was last modified: 05-24-2015 05:33 PM by PoisonSnake.)
Post: #11
RE: New myth about Solid Snake in MGS2
Back to Ravi's piece, and from what we discussed above, I do think the angle Snake has is an unfortunate disaster and might even have to do with Vamp's positioning himself like that. The angle is from above, which one one would think is great, but about 45 degress to Vamp's left and behind, which puts a lot of bone between the skin and the brain stem. Also the bone there is round, adding randomness to the bullet trajectory. So I do think this angle makes the shot difficult, tell me what you think.
But besides the less than perfect angle... assuming a bullet from a pro like Snake would have maimed Vamp as a sniper would intend, I think the greatest deterrents for Snake to firing are that he cannot see all of Emma's body, and more relevant maybe is that its impossible from his position to guarantee that a bullet in a downward trajectory from his rifle would not wound Emma after exiting Vamp's. Wouldnt you say so?
Thus I agree with Singh in that it was Vamp checkmating Snake here. And Snake could only vent his impotence.
Snake is a legendary soldier, but Vamp was always supernatural... even if this was planned or not by Kojima it does match somehting Vamp says earlier to Raiden.
"Human muscles are quite eloquent. They speak-out clearly what the person's next movement will be. They tell me where a gun is pointed before they even pull the trigger."

And he might have just intended Snake's rifle to point at his neck and at Emma...
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05-24-2015, 07:48 PM
Post: #12
RE: New myth about Solid Snake in MGS2
I don't think Snake's angle to Vamp is as extreme as 45°. What you suggested is possible, but even if so, Snake still has a far better shot than Raiden.

As for the bullet changing trajectory after hitting Vamp, I can't say for certain; I'm not a Master Sniper, though I did train under one in basic stalking & sniping, and I can say three things with fair certainty:

-the 7.62x51mm round will punch right through several soft targets before stopping, so a relatively soft target as a human neck wouldn't alter the trajectory significantly enough to cause serious injury to Emma. Remember that Vamp is holding her in front of him and with her head to his left; Snake's round would pass by Emma before hitting Vamp, so it'd have to make a 180° turn to hit her, and it wouldn't fragment like a 5.56x45mm round.

-Snake's only a few meters high and within 100m or so of Vamp. He'd have a fairly clean shot into Vamp's brainstem without having to fire through much of the skull. This also adds to my argument that Snake has a better shot than Raiden, who'd have to fire through the face to hit the right spot from a significantly further range (though he's still probably only 300m or so away).

-Vamp doesn't even seem to notice Snake, not does he hold Emma in a fashion that would protect him from both shooters; Emma is only shielding him from Raiden, not Snake. I'd even go so far as to say that Vamp doesn't even know Snake is there based on his actions before and during the Hostage segment.

The only reason I can still figure would prevent Snake from firing is the fear that Emma will fall into the water afterwards. A paryzing shot will literally drop a person - no dramatic flying back like in the movies. Vamp could very well collapse onto Emma and push her into the water, and she's a dumb whiny bitch who'd just drown. So that's the drive behind Snake's failure to act, if anything.

Realistically, the only reason he fails to shoot is because it's technicay a "Boss," but shooting those Ciphers would be a much tougher thing to do than taking Vamp out with a 7.62 scoped rifle at 100m max. If he was using an M4, maybe it'd be a different story, but not a PSG1.

CANUCKLEHEAD
He's just a prick

I just saved 100% on stress by switching to Not Giving A Fuck
QUOTE
05-24-2015, 10:46 PM
Post: #13
RE: New myth about Solid Snake in MGS2
Heh, I might bother myself and rewatch the thing in youtube.
And, you are pretty good!
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05-24-2015, 10:47 PM
Post: #14
RE: New myth about Solid Snake in MGS2
(05-23-2015 04:53 AM)Canucklehead Wrote:  I dunno. Snake yelling "NO!" doesn't really convince me that he had no shot

It's more of the angle of the shot in the cutscene. It's there to make the viewer believe that Snake can not really do much.

(05-22-2016 02:42 PM)Canucklehead Wrote:  The actual hero of Metal Gear is the player for putting up with all of its bullshit over the years.
QUOTE
05-25-2015, 02:53 AM
Post: #15
RE: New myth about Solid Snake in MGS2
Maybe I'll rewatch the whole scene. Too bad I can't pop the MGS2 Document into my PS3 and read the script. That'd be the final word on the matter.

CANUCKLEHEAD
He's just a prick

I just saved 100% on stress by switching to Not Giving A Fuck
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