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Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
04-17-2014, 09:31 AM
Post: #61
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
Quoting individual points is a hassle on a device but if you Ravi feel that you are being unjustifiably lumped together with mccarthy, john thompson, anita s., and maybe the libertarians I would go so far as to say that we are even. If a game is censored my gamimg controller starts crying. When I said cause harm to society or gamers I thought about pokemon with seizures. That extreme. As a writer myself nothing bothers me more than the "c" word. Most of my com andment s r to the OP...in my opinion op needs to do a lot more to justify hia claim that kojima is misogynistic. I have even presented wxamples of women expressing a basic contempt for men. These were the "good guys" too. The world was saved by a male and we cant know for sure if those characters had a change of heart.


My only criticism of your article Ravi was it could have been longer...that is, if youre looking for feedback.
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04-17-2014, 09:33 AM (This post was last modified: 04-17-2014 09:41 AM by Nike Schneider.)
Post: #62
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
(04-17-2014 09:31 AM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  Quoting individual points is a hassle on a device but if you Ravi feel that you are being unjustifiably lumped together with mccarthy, john thompson, anita s., and maybe the libertarians I would go so far as to say that we are even.

No, I don't really care what people think of me. I'm pointing out the absurdity of your worldview. Just take a look at that list.

Joseph McCarthy
Jack Thompson
Anita Sarkeesian
Ravi Singh
"the libertarians" (which I'm fine with being labeled as, honestly)

It would make for a great sitcom because none of us would get along. Maybe Jack and Joe would become secret lovers but that's pretty much it.

(04-17-2014 09:31 AM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  Most of my com andment s r to the OP...in my opinion op needs to do a lot more to justify hia claim that kojima is misogynistic.

Sure. And that's fine, its called having a conversation. My issue is the "why talk about it" mentality.

(05-22-2016 02:42 PM)Canucklehead Wrote:  The actual hero of Metal Gear is the player for putting up with all of its bullshit over the years.
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04-17-2014, 09:51 AM
Post: #63
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
Talking about it is fine. It's probably the first real controversy Metal Gear has had....I just wish more women would chime in more by playing every game and oming to a conclusion. So far all I see are women, presumeably, having a kneejerk reaction to the wrong game to make such comments. I really think there are far worse depictions and though metal gear sgouldnt be immune to scrutiny, it has been farmore effectivea at providing a space for this sort of discussion than any other videogame ever made .
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04-17-2014, 09:57 AM
Post: #64
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
(04-17-2014 09:51 AM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  I just wish more women would chime in more by playing every game and oming to a conclusion. So far all I see are women, presumeably, having a kneejerk reaction to the wrong game to make such comments.

And this is what I mean by your comments. I'm not saying you're misogynistic, but shit you say like this comes off as sexist.

Most complaints on the treatment of women in Metal Gear have actually been from men.

(05-22-2016 02:42 PM)Canucklehead Wrote:  The actual hero of Metal Gear is the player for putting up with all of its bullshit over the years.
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04-17-2014, 09:58 AM (This post was last modified: 04-17-2014 10:02 AM by THEND.)
Post: #65
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
And the Ravi show would be an awesome sitcom...so long as it had those characters specifically. Can we throw Stalin in there? I think he'd be a great neighbor

Call it whatever you want. If wanting a womans opinion makes me sexist then so be it. I can live with that.
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04-17-2014, 10:05 AM (This post was last modified: 04-17-2014 10:08 AM by Nike Schneider.)
Post: #66
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
Actually just realized i misread you. I thought you were implying that only women took issue with female characters in Metal Gear.

I still think IGN's Lucy O'Brien, outside of the "rape as a reward" argument, had decent criticism. I already posted Zee's thoughts which argued that its not selective to women in particular.

Stalin had a pretty sick mustache.

(05-22-2016 02:42 PM)Canucklehead Wrote:  The actual hero of Metal Gear is the player for putting up with all of its bullshit over the years.
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04-17-2014, 10:11 AM
Post: #67
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
(04-17-2014 08:09 AM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  Meryl insults men and prides herself on her ability to resist being attracted to men.

Naomi sees men and their desire to kill regardless of the consequences as a testament to their inferiority.

Raiden represents the player and now he is an androgynous dead beat daddy ninja that wears high heels.

Sunnys lab is guarded by a creepy moe loving otaku. Really, he is the future of Japan incarnate.
Raiden's appearance was, as you might know, based on a survey Kojima conducted sometime prior to MGS2's release; he wanted to gauge the opinion of female gamers, many of whom didn't like playing as "an old man", among other things about Snake that they didn't like. So that's how we wound up with Raiden, and it was a tightly-guarded secret until its release in the West.
I will admit that when we were introduced to Raiden for the first time, I was thinking "Why am I playing as a femmy instead of Snake?" As such I was poking fun at his appearance. But, over time, I got used to it. The response to having to play as Raiden in MGS2 was overwhelmingly negative, which prompted the conception of Ivan Raidenovitch Raikov for MGS3.....plus that one gag video, "Snake Eraser", which features Raiden getting ass-kicking after ass-kicking.
To me, the whole thing with Raiden was that it sucked that we didn't get to play as Snake for the remainder of MGS2. If you give a damn about the series, you'd learn to get over it. For MGS3, I often refrained from killing Raikov, mostly because after seeing everything, it's like "Okay; we get the point." The gag video further reinforced my feeling, to the point where I felt like giving Raiden a pat on the back. But, that's just me. Anyone else who held a grudge against Raiden could do whatever they wanted for all I care.

As for Otacon, I read somewhere that he is, in some ways, a representation of us, the fan-base. It was already established in MGS that he's an otaku, but he's also a geek who specializes in making high-tech shit. He is also arguably Snake's best friend. I think that the whole thing with spying on Sunny is to ensure that she is kept safe, since she was taken by The Patriots, as her life would be in danger.
Granted, back in 2008 there was a whole ton of lolicon referencing here in the forums....that is to say, poking fun at how there was a "loli-cam" when pausing the game, that you could see Sunny in her room. I don't know Otacon's interests aside from his liking of Japanimation and the like, so who is to say he likes Moé. If he did like lolicon and whatever similar, that'd give off a creepy feeling about him, though it'd probably still be funny. Oh, and Otacon scores in MGS4.
The article I caught last night also pointed out how Otacon was, compared to most other male characters in the series, quite feeble, physically and emotionally. We're so used to seeing female support-characters who are "useless" that Otacon should be seen in a certain perspective. As I said, he is also emotionally feeble; tears come to him easily as a result of, well, having feelings. He cries over Wolf's death, his sister's death, and Naomi's death, though the death of his sister was probably the bigger blow to him than the others (though, sick as I sound here, his crying was funny to listen to.....plus my brother always imitated that scene, going "Hal?" in the parrot's voice then impersonating Otacon's sobbing, which was actually annoying for me but nevermind that).....now, see, in this case, this is a guy who is expressing these emotions. We all know "Men don't cry," so I think most people would see Otacon and just proclaim that he's just a sissy. These days, though, if it were a female, there might be some outrage, because there's familiarity with all those tropes and archetypes that the SJW groups are griping about. Otherwise, since this is a guy expressing these emotions, it'd just be viewed with disdain, prompting feelings like "Stop crying, you big baby; be a man!" and shit like that. As I see it right now, with these comparisons, it's still a lose-lose situation; if a woman is like that, it's bad, and if a guy is like that, it's bad.

Quote:Theres more I could say about raiden but at the end of thw day, a majority of male gamers being told to stop playing videogames should be evidence enough of Kojimas disdain for the userbase. Before Metal Gear when did a game even ask you to care about the woman. Of course im going to save the girl over Otacon. That make Kojima sexist too?

Are u just writing a bitch article and playing devils advocate for research?
I need to re-read the OP's first post in this thread to get a better understanding, but for now, this thread serves as a proper outlet for my opinion of the matter. Though, some of the first post's description reminds me of some comments I remember seeing on YouTube (don't take this the wrong way, OP), of people bitching in those Saw movie videos that "the creators of these movies are fucking sick," which reminded me of how people were creeped out when they saw my drawings when I was younger, thinking I was a terrorist and other shit. I think some people said something similar about the makers of the Dead Space franchise. Are they really sick in the head? Well, I think it's more of a case where they know where the money is at.

I do wonder what Kojima-san thinks of his fan-base these days. I wonder if he's still trying to figure out how to deal with the mainstream audience and how they're complaining about certain things.....because I doubt he had to go through this BS over a decade ago. If he truly does think low of his fan-base, I couldn't really blame him, though I'd regret saying that since I count as part of that which he thinks low of.

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04-17-2014, 10:16 AM (This post was last modified: 04-17-2014 10:17 AM by Da Vinci.)
Post: #68
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
I think we can all safely say Lincoln was a great president gentleman.

Thread is over, we have finally reached a consensus (?)
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04-17-2014, 10:25 AM (This post was last modified: 04-17-2014 10:29 AM by THEND.)
Post: #69
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
Respect...Mainly to Ravi
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04-17-2014, 10:32 AM (This post was last modified: 04-17-2014 10:34 AM by Nike Schneider.)
Post: #70
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
(04-17-2014 10:11 AM)Old Gross Wrote:  As for Otacon, I read somewhere that he is, in some ways, a representation of us, the fan-base.

Haha yeah Kojima even said this again recently in an interview with IGN. He basically said "Otacon is like the fans" and then continued to go on about how awkward he is and how he continues to get rejected by women...

(04-17-2014 10:11 AM)Old Gross Wrote:  We all know "Men don't cry," so I think most people would see Otacon and just proclaim that he's just a sissy. These days, though, if it were a female, there might be some outrage, because there's familiarity with all those tropes and archetypes that the SJW groups are griping about. Otherwise, since this is a guy expressing these emotions, it'd just be viewed with disdain, prompting feelings like "Stop crying, you big baby; be a man!" and shit like that. As I see it right now, with these comparisons, it's still a lose-lose situation; if a woman is like that, it's bad, and if a guy is like that, it's bad.

Actually, the fact that people criticize Otacon as a crybaby gets criticism, much like how the overly homophobic reaction to playing as Raiden received criticism. In fact, what you just said is a bit feminist believe it or not.

(04-17-2014 10:11 AM)Old Gross Wrote:  I do wonder what Kojima-san thinks of his fan-base these days. I wonder if he's still trying to figure out how to deal with the mainstream audience and how they're complaining about certain things.....because I doubt he had to go through this BS over a decade ago. If he truly does think low of his fan-base, I couldn't really blame him, though I'd regret saying that since I count as part of that which he thinks low of.

Honestly, I think he thinks we're thickheaded and so relies on making things obvious for us. I mean, Skull Face. He has a skull for a face. He hates women. He makes children rape women. I wonder what Kojima wants us to think about this Skull Face...

(04-17-2014 10:16 AM)Da Vinci Wrote:  I think we can all safely say Lincoln was a great president gentleman.

Thread is over, we have finally reached a consensus (?)

Lincoln was fucking terrible.

(05-22-2016 02:42 PM)Canucklehead Wrote:  The actual hero of Metal Gear is the player for putting up with all of its bullshit over the years.
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04-17-2014, 11:02 AM (This post was last modified: 04-17-2014 11:04 AM by Smiley.)
Post: #71
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
Can someone tell me aside from RE5 what video games were receiving heavy criticism over race?

Considering that RE5 was originally going to be a single player game starring Chris in Africa and then it became a co-op shooter adding in a black female companion I always wondered if this was Capcom's way of dealing with the racial backlash. Just looking at the narrative on its own you'll see that the story is entirely Chris' and Sheva serves to be a tag-a-long through all of it. And then the co-op itself sparked Resident Evil into losing less of its survival horror roots.

The problem with the RE5 example and MGSV is the intent. Chris is an established returning character, Umbrella had its roots planted in Africa and Africa itself populates black people. All these were connections made to tie up the story between Chris and Wesker that resulted in people who never played the game coming out and arguing over racism.

With MGSV, you have Kojima directly admit his intents and purposes over race and revenge and all these aspects that he feels will tie into that. He explained why Quiet was designed the way she was which by itself sparked criticism. He explained that he was pushing taboo themes and his story and characters are the end result where again the narrative is receiving the criticism. The complaints men and women have over these events are from his own words and intentions. The other portrayals of women in MGS are up for debate, but consider that for MGSV Kojima is expecting a great deal of controversy over his decisions this time around.

I think there's some ignorance on his part, what's unintentional follies from Kojima is the writing itself rather than the taboo themes he'd like to present.

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04-17-2014, 11:16 AM (This post was last modified: 04-17-2014 11:22 AM by Nike Schneider.)
Post: #72
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
(04-17-2014 11:02 AM)Smiley Wrote:  With MGSV, you have Kojima directly admit his intents and purposes over race and revenge and all these aspects that he feels will tie into that. He explained why Quiet was designed the way she was which by itself sparked criticism. He explained that he was pushing taboo themes and his story and characters are the end result where again the narrative is receiving the criticism. The complaints men and women have over these events are from his own words and intentions. The other portrayals of women in MGS are up for debate, but consider that for MGSV Kojima is expecting a great deal of controversy over his decisions this time around.

I think there's some ignorance on his part, what's unintentional follies from Kojima is the writing itself rather than the taboo themes he'd like to present.

Actually, Kojima simply said that Quiet looks that way on purpose and that people criticizing it will "feel ashamed" when they find out why. Which is why I not only think the Quiet is Chico theory is plausible, but actually would make for a good explanation. Basically though, he told us to wait until The Phantom Pain.

While I have commented on shit like Beauty & the Beast and have said that unlocking the ability to gawk at a hi-res (for the time) Mei Ling in VR Missions was pathetic, I think we should be willing to see Quiet's portrayal in context. Who knows, it might actually be a legitimate commentary on rape culture in the military. Maybe the critics will feel ashamed.

(05-22-2016 02:42 PM)Canucklehead Wrote:  The actual hero of Metal Gear is the player for putting up with all of its bullshit over the years.
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04-17-2014, 11:17 AM
Post: #73
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
(04-17-2014 10:32 AM)Punished Singh Wrote:  Honestly, I think he thinks we're thickheaded and so relies on making things obvious for us. I mean, Skull Face. He has a skull for a face. He hates women. He makes children rape women. I wonder what Kojima wants us to think about this Skull Face...
I do have to agree that "Skull Face" is kind of uncreative for a name. Such could apply to "Code Talker" and "Quiet". Maybe this is all part of some intent on Kojima's part to chastise us (or at least the mainstream), but there I go thinking outloud about shit again.

At least "Eli" and "Ishmael" are a bit fancier....though the latter, Ishmael, is meant to reference Moby-Dick and not Isaac's brother (Hebrew lore and shit). Though, more often, when I think of the name "Eli" I think of the Eli from There Will Be Blood. "NOW BEEEEGGGG FOR THE BLOOOOODDD!!11!" God I hated that guy.

Punished Singh Wrote:
(04-17-2014 10:16 AM)Da Vinci Wrote:  I think we can all safely say Lincoln was a great president gentleman.

Thread is over, we have finally reached a consensus (?)
Lincoln was fucking terrible.
Eh? How so? I mean, not trying to nag or get on your case, but I don't often hear about him being shitty and I'm curious as to how (aside from some strange stories I heard years back elsewhere).

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04-17-2014, 11:33 AM (This post was last modified: 04-17-2014 11:33 AM by Nike Schneider.)
Post: #74
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
(04-17-2014 11:17 AM)Old Gross Wrote:  Eh? How so? I mean, not trying to nag or get on your case, but I don't often hear about him being shitty and I'm curious as to how (aside from some strange stories I heard years back elsewhere).

The short story is that he isn't what he is usually credited as being.

(05-22-2016 02:42 PM)Canucklehead Wrote:  The actual hero of Metal Gear is the player for putting up with all of its bullshit over the years.
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04-17-2014, 11:56 AM
Post: #75
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
At risk is deviating off-topic, but....
(04-17-2014 11:33 AM)Punished Singh Wrote:  
(04-17-2014 11:17 AM)Old Gross Wrote:  Eh? How so? I mean, not trying to nag or get on your case, but I don't often hear about him being shitty and I'm curious as to how (aside from some strange stories I heard years back elsewhere).
The short story is that he isn't what he is usually credited as being.
Hmm, interesting. In 2009 I saw about half of that sequel to the Zeitgeist video and it stated that President Lincoln got us out of debt (probably why he was assassinated, too). Then I heard weirder stories like how "He carried out the world's first successful communist revolution," but that was elsewhere online. Otherwise, I recall hearing how the Civil War was more about states' rights and not blacks' rights, and that Lincoln didn't care about slaves and that he hated them and what-not (because he was white, durr), though I think that was some attempt at American historical revisionism, likely to portray the US as such a horrible, cowardly country (imperialism, fascism, et cetera). But I'll do some research on Lincoln on my own time.

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