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Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
04-16-2014, 08:57 PM (This post was last modified: 04-16-2014 09:18 PM by Smiley.)
Post: #46
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
(04-16-2014 08:19 PM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  You're entitled to your opinion, but I think real vs. fantasy is important. You make some serious points about Kojima's treatment of Meryl and Paz but at the end of the day, women aren't as physically strong on average as men but you completely forget to mention the B&B unit. Every one of these girls is sexualized beyond belief right after you defeat them and even worse, after hearing about their traumatic childhoods but at the end of the day, this isn't a real woman.

Not only that but those gestures....is she, RAPING the player when Snake is on the ground? Switch the genders and what do you get?

Real vs. fantasy only works to disassociate settings, races, the unnatural, etc.

The setting and the characters may be fictional, but rape, kidnapping, torture.... These are all real things. And to be invested in a story or its characters you have to accept the reality within the fiction. It's the only way an audience can relate to what's happening in their world with ours.

The B&B Corps that you mention may be fictional, but there's still a layer of realism in mind to go along with their cruel backstories. Assault, cannibalism, murder, etc. Whether it was effective or not is up for debate with the rest of MGS4 in general, but after all each of the B&B's faces were modeled after real women. And because these women were professional models it gives Kojima room to throw in photo shoots during a boss battle.

And to be honest I have no idea what Kojima was fully intending during those boss battles. Is the Beauty actually raping Snake? Or is Snake being overwhelmed by whatever she's doing that she is sucking the life right out of him like a siren? It looks like it was portrayed to be enticing and seductive, but I never found it arousing or offensive because at that point my goal was to break free.

Male dominance over a reluctant female would stir the pot more if it was sexualized. But you'd still have the female fighting to break free and kill her opponent. We already have Old Snake fighting these women (including Liquid's FROGs), but the context behind that is that they are hired to kill you so it's kill or be killed. Only the Beauties act as sirens that try to chase after you till you kill them. Or you can "save" them which doesn't really change the outcome in the story. They are just chess pieces.

Quote:Okay fine you got me there. But what about the sexual assault of the B&B unit in MGS4 after they get out of their suits or as Otacon so appropriately states, "come out" of their suits? As if now they're ready to seduce him and raise the poor old man's blood pressure to death?

Maybe. It's clearly not something you want to want to happen within the game because it results in a game over.

Quote:Kojima is king of Metal Gear. If Omi Gibson wants to dress as Quiet to impress him, who are we to stop her? One might even say we would be sexist for trying to stop her.

Ya have to wonder why we're having this debate....aren't most of us guys?

I have no problem with women wanting to cosplay as Quiet. I have no problem with designing a character to promote cosplay either.

Did you skim over the rest of my comments? Because the cosplay itself was never the issue.

Quote:I don't think any male with a penis and the potential to use it by means of access to a wet, ready, and willing vagina really cares whether women depicted in a fictionalized setting for a bevy of men that either can't get laid or just want to relax see women depicted in such a way. And I think, if women really cared about how videogames are developed and for whom, they'd get into game design. I think with time this will happen. I've seen plenty of women with their game boy advances playing cooking mama...so many.

Not every sexually active male is only concerned with their own satisfaction. My wife loves MGS, but even she sighed when she noticed Quiet's reveal in the GDC trailer. And of course she loves to cosplay with me, but there's no desire to be Quiet because she is uncomfortable with the idea of dressing like that at a convention. Some women aren't, but this is a case of cosplay promotion not working for us. She doesn't mind being somewhat revealing as she has done RE3 Jill Valentine before, but there's nothing about Quiet's appearance that really promotes cosplaying as her. She's a new character in a game, but what else is there? What makes her an appealing character to cosplay as? Is it just the challenge of dressing like on its own? Because that's the only exposure being given.

And there are female game designers. But of course game designing is one thing. How many of them are fully in charge and have creative control of their product?

Quote:Story wise...these things are okay..so long as such products are being marketed to the right audience. I can't remember the last time a game store even had genre related categories to be honest...so of course there wasn't an adult section. Kojima's no more mysoginistic than you or me or anyone else. He's just the one with the best game and he's not an American game designer. American game designers don't come under this sort of unfounded scrutiny....where's the Duke Nukem complaining?

Lots of people complain about Duke Nukem. But the series itself relishes in being as vile and immature as possible. It's a self-aware game that knows it's being misogynistic and plays on that for comedy just like the rest of its tropes including the alpha male character of Duke himself.

MGS is being marketed to men and women. We know from Raiden that Kojima did at a point care about female gamers. But I do wonder outside the brand name what are women getting out of MGSV aside from cosplaying as Quiet?

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04-16-2014, 09:12 PM (This post was last modified: 04-16-2014 09:31 PM by THEND.)
Post: #47
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
I read it...and I know you're reading mine, Smiliey. I can see that. It's clear that..to me, all of this content in the game, if anything, would point to Kojima being a man hater, not a hater of women.

Old Snake is overwhelmed by B&B's sexuality.
Raiden is shaken and stirred naked with nothing but his little hand to cover his genitalia.
The entirety of the game is about getting you (mostly males) to stop playing videogames.

METAL GEAR IS THE ONLY GAME I REALLY LIKE PLAYING!

I don't think Kojima is mysoginistic. If I were a girl and I played this whole series, I would think that Kojima hated men...not women.

EDIT:

I guess I should add a little more. Anything bad that happens to a woman in the Metal Gear Solid series should be evidence of Kojima hating the negative effects of war...not the spoils thereof.

EDIT x2: I sighed too... when I realized I'd be staring at Raidens bare ass over and over until I got through Arsenals fucking rectum. Thanks Kojima you can come out of the closet now.

(04-13-2014 12:43 PM)Smiley Wrote:  In the case of MGSV we have yet another example. Paz and Chico are assaulted, but to further the pain and torment we learn that Paz was also given two bombs placed inside her. We've had women violated and tortured in the games before, but now it seems like Kojima wants to push it a step further with the bombs. And it just comes off as creepy. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Quiet (who we know gets tortured) also ends up in the same boat being the victim of sexual assault or objectification just because it seems so common now.
I'm putting your initial post here. I agree that a lot of it IS creepy. I hated it initially. I think what it does right however, is paint an accurate picture of the risks of women in war.

Women in war know going in, that they run the risk of getting raped. This is something that always baffles my mind personally. Why do women want to put themselves at risk of being raped in war even unnecessarily. Whether women should serve in combat units or not is for another topic...but depicting it, in my opinion, hopefully tactfuly, I feel like would be the best way to get the message across so there are at least some people who see women being raped in war and not being blinded by the patriotic fervor that could easily convince people to send their 18 year old nieces to the front lines. The same goes for waterboarding. For some people, Metal Gear is the only game that they've ever seen waterboarding. Only once it's been seen and dramatized especially can people really know that IT IS INDEED TORTURE and not a happy alternative. Things like this. In my opinion, as vile as it sounds, it's about knowing what you're getting yourself into. Some adults may already know, some may know and don't care. Kojima could be taking it upon himself to show it before it's glamorized. I don't think women being hurt in war is proof of mysoginism is what I'm trying to say. If anything, it's a concern for the truth of battle. Women get raped in war. A female soldier would be running the risk of getting raped in war and not make any reservations about it. It's never meant to be pretty.
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04-16-2014, 10:00 PM (This post was last modified: 04-16-2014 10:09 PM by Nike Schneider.)
Post: #48
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
(04-16-2014 08:53 PM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  The outrage over the shooting sprees prompted a serious examination by the Obama administration over the legitimacy of videogame inspired violence and whether or not there was a causal relationship between videogames and shootings. Most gamers probably want to chill out and play their games. You, since...I've been compared to other people for some reason.....probably want to enjoy your games that you choose to play. You run a videogame website.

Running a fansite that costs me money actually is irrelevant to my opinion which is that speech should not be censored and that people should be responsible for their actions. As a result, not only am I in favor of free speech but I am also in favor of gun rights. This might be why I found the NRA's statement absolutely disgusting--for a group that claims to protect a part of the constitution of the United States, its shameful for them to then proceed to attack the 1st. Then again, the NRA has a history of just being shitty even from the perspective of a gun owner.

(04-16-2014 08:53 PM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  If there is ever proven to be a causal link between videogames and shootings, or illegal sexual deviancy, or anything else we as a society would call, "not gud" then obviously those elements would want to be isolated, examined, and probably exorcised from the industry at large.

And here is where we differ. For a multitude of reasons.

For starters, there is evidence linking video games to violence. Just studies though. And while you might be quick to (rightfully) point out that this is simply a correlation, the same can be said about the "evidence" linking second hand smoking to lung cancer. This study isn't going to do shit except maybe be a conversation piece or a suggestion on what content you expose your possible children to. The only thing you would have to genuinely fear when it comes to censorship is government. That is it.

As video games are becoming mainstream and since the first amendment is still seen as sacred, it still would take a lot of effort to ban even a single video game in the United States. The Supreme Court already ruled that even prohibiting the sale of video games to minors is violating free speech. The only fear you should have is that the government decides, as it has when it comes to other constitutional amendments, decides to overstep its bounds.

I, for one, welcome any and all discussion. To stifle conversation because of fear is a strange concept to me. You fear censorship yet you almost imply you would accept censorship of ideas because they may lead to censorship. However, it is not the ideas that do any sort of censorship but the government.

(04-16-2014 08:53 PM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  If I were to guess, I would say that people like Anita S. want to make videogames for the female market and simply see consulting from a feminist angle as an easy way to shake hands, fuck whoever they have to and get a good promotion and eventually their own team.

I would actually argue that Anita has no interest in making video games. She is an opportunist.

(04-16-2014 08:53 PM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  I only say this because Ravi, you're saying some very unfounded things and making some outlandish assumptions about me.

On the contrary, I have made no assumptions. What I have done, and I believe this is what you are referring to, is pointed out that while you claim to be defending video games (or just Kojima, or just Metal Gear, or whatever) from the accusation of misogyny, you end up actually saying shit that comes off as misogynist.

Case in point:

(04-16-2014 08:53 PM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  I don't think any male with a penis and the potential to use it by means of access to a wet, ready, and willing vagina really cares whether women depicted in a fictionalized setting for a bevy of men that either can't get laid or just want to relax see women depicted in such a way.

What a strange argument to be made. Lets see what you are basically saying. "If you are a straight male and are getting laid regularly, you will not be interested in this subject." Am I the exception then? What is it about getting off with a woman that would make a subject that involves character development, storywriting, and so forth non-consequential? Do homosexual men worry? Why? Straight women? Lesbian women? Bisexuals? What about the those who are transgender?

My father is a little conservative socially and his main criticism of modern mainstream film is that they often throw in sex scene "for no fucking reason" but to perhaps either appear "mature" or sell more movie tickets. I never got it when I was young because, well, "who cares old man its just sex lol" but as I've gotten more fond of actual plots and characters and writing... it's a legitimate criticism. It's no different from the criticism of Michael Bay relying on explosions and CG for his films.

How much do I care? I suppose I'm here typing up a storm, but then again I'm just procrastinating a lab report for class. I still consider myself a fan of the series and Kojima in general. I still am looking forward to The Phantom Pain albeit with significantly lower expectations than I did before experiencing Ground Zeroes' plot. Maybe its because I'm such a fan that I do "care" to discuss the depiction of female characters.

(04-16-2014 08:53 PM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  And I think, if women really cared about how videogames are developed and for whom, they'd get into game design. I think with time this will happen.

It will happen. And my biggest complaint regarding the self-proclaimed "allies" is that they don't do shit about this. They will talk a big game and feel better about themselves but in the end of the day, have they personally done anything to advance women into the industry? Retweeting Anita doesn't count. Having Manami Matsumae compose the soundtrack? Bingo. Oh, that was Capcom in the 1980s?

(04-16-2014 08:53 PM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  I've seen plenty of women with their game boy advances playing cooking mama...so many.

Funny, what I think you're implying almost goes hand-to-hand with my theory on the gamer bro culture that the media has created and (only recently) abandoned:

Quote:Developers don’t need to be “in on it” to be tricked into following the Master Plan. If IGN gives a lousy score to Cooking Mama for the Nintendo DS and ignores any news related to it, then obviously people must hate Cooking Mama, right? And on the other hand, if Halo: ODST receives high praise from their “clued-in editors” and savvy hype-sters, it must truly be a top-tier game that everybody loves! Meanwhile, the sales figures:

Cooking Mama (DS): $5.12 million
Halo: ODST (360): $5.87 million

The sales trends are interesting here, too. While Cooking Mama has been out for a few more years than ODST, which helps to account for the sales figures being closer to equal, it started extremely slow and has been increasing in waves since, whereas Halo: ODST has almost completely plateaued after only a few weeks.

All of the sales of ODST were initial, before word of mouth could spread, making a big splash and then stopping. Cooking Mama started off with no sales, and then eventually built as word of mouth spread — despite negative reviews. I wonder how many more it would have sold if it had enjoyed a fair treatment. Ultimately, they have proven themselves to be more or less equals, deserving of equal status and respect, and yet professional reviews for Cooking Mama are in the gutter, and ODST gets near-perfect scores. I guess those stupid “casual gamers” will buy any garbage, huh! Clearly, the milked dry sci-fi military shooter, Halo, has earned its glory, and the innovative and quirky thing where you learn to make food should be shunned! Get with the program, developers! We hate quirky new ideas! Give us more gun porn!

http://metagearsolid.org/2011/07/video-g...ster-plan/

Honestly, I'm pretty impressed that those girls you saw were able to emulate the DS on GameBoy Advance.

(04-16-2014 08:53 PM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  Story wise...these things are okay..so long as such products are being marketed to the right audience. I can't remember the last time a game store even had genre related categories to be honest...so of course there wasn't an adult section. Kojima's no more mysoginistic than you or me or anyone else. He's just the one with the best game and he's not an American game designer. American game designers don't come under this sort of unfounded scrutiny....where's the Duke Nukem complaining?

Poor comparison. Duke Nukem is self-aware. Metal Gear was always narrative driven and Ground Zeroes in particular is meant to have a dark serious tone.

We're also on a Metal Gear fansite. I can go on about how Stephen Moffat's female characters are practically living sex dolls. Except A) Doctor Who sucks anyways and B) I come here, my Metal Gear fansite, to talk about Metal Gear.

(04-16-2014 08:53 PM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  The only controversy here is there is one. Hopefully when The Phantom Pain comes out we'll have a lot more to defend from people like A. Sarkeesian, and you.

Yes, group every single person who disagrees with you together. What better way to make it seem like the whole world is against your hobby?

(04-16-2014 08:53 PM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  I didn't see that comment up there. I think you missed the point. Women invented feminism. What does that say about "power" and who holds it.

Classical liberals in the United States who were annoyed at social democrats hijacking the word "liberal" invented the libertarian movement. Whats your point?

(04-16-2014 08:53 PM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  Do you see what I mean? I'm not saying it's always been a certain way. I'm just saying, should we as gamers be picking apart aspects of a game to make sure women will enjoy them? If so, why should that be? Is that such a bad question to ask, Ravi?

It never was about women enjoying it or not. Plenty of female fans of Metal Gear and I doubt that will ever change.

Should we, as gamers, be picking apart aspects of a video game? That is what I have been doing on this site since 2003. I see no reason to not indulge in a conversation on female characters.

(04-16-2014 08:53 PM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  Or should we just be self-absorbed douchebags that know more than everyone else like you?

Hahahaha I'm guessing I struck a chord somewhere in this thread?

(05-22-2016 02:42 PM)Canucklehead Wrote:  The actual hero of Metal Gear is the player for putting up with all of its bullshit over the years.
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04-16-2014, 10:52 PM
Post: #49
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
(04-16-2014 09:12 PM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  I read it...and I know you're reading mine, Smiliey. I can see that. It's clear that..to me, all of this content in the game, if anything, would point to Kojima being a man hater, not a hater of women.

Your B&B examples still show women being sexualized and oogled over. If you wanna joke around a make your case that Kojima hates men then go for it.

Quote:I guess I should add a little more. Anything bad that happens to a woman in the Metal Gear Solid series should be evidence of Kojima hating the negative effects of war...not the spoils thereof.

That's fine, but the negative effects in question just seem to be added there to force an emotion for the gamer. And in Quiet's case we know her look is based for cosplay and toy sales. Not the spoils of war (even though he could write it that way in the story).

Quote:EDIT x2: I sighed too... when I realized I'd be staring at Raidens bare ass over and over until I got through Arsenals fucking rectum. Thanks Kojima you can come out of the closet now.

Congratulations for not only the misogynistic comments, but now the homophobic trolling as well. Honestly, it would have been fine if you felt uncomfortable playing as naked Raiden.

Quote:Women in war know going in, that they run the risk of getting raped. This is something that always baffles my mind personally. Why do women want to put themselves at risk of being raped in war even unnecessarily. Whether women should serve in combat units or not is for another topic...but depicting it, in my opinion, hopefully tactfuly, I feel like would be the best way to get the message across so there are at least some people who see women being raped in war and not being blinded by the patriotic fervor that could easily convince people to send their 18 year old nieces to the front lines.

...

I just..... Wow. I know it's trolling, but this is why we can't have nice things.

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04-16-2014, 10:52 PM
Post: #50
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
Kojima, a misandrist? Naw I doubt that too. I mean, I know Meryl says some man-hating stuff in that one part in MGS4, but I didn't see it as propaganda. Actually, let's exclude MGS4 and reference.....er......MGS1? Sniper Wolf says some stuff that express women to be better than men.

Y'know, I think we're thinking too deep into this issue. MGS hasn't been all about sexism, yet we think there is something sexist in those games. There is dialogue now and then in the games that are directed against one gender, but I don't think it's as serious as we're all making it out to be. I don't know, though....

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04-16-2014, 11:06 PM (This post was last modified: 04-17-2014 12:02 AM by Smiley.)
Post: #51
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
(04-16-2014 10:52 PM)Old Gross Wrote:  Kojima, a misandrist? Naw I doubt that too. I mean, I know Meryl says some man-hating stuff in that one part in MGS4, but I didn't see it as propaganda. Actually, let's exclude MGS4 and reference.....er......MGS1? Sniper Wolf says some stuff that express women to be better than men.

Y'know, I think we're thinking too deep into this issue. MGS hasn't been all about sexism, yet we think there is something sexist in those games. There is dialogue now and then in the games that are directed against one gender, but I don't think it's as serious as we're all making it out to be. I don't know, though....

MGS1 does make a good case about resourceful, intelligent and strong women in the thick of the all the fanservice and sexual passes that game has to offer. Of course, Sniper Wolf isn't without her own victimized backstory, but it fell in line with the other members of FOXHOUND who looked to Big Boss after tragedy struck and she's probably one of the better examples this series has to offer. Then you get to the NSFW sexy Shinkawa art which has no bearing on the game itself but very well drawn to say the least.


EDIT:

And here we are with a Yahtzee review. Does he talk about the women. He might.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/v...es-40-Demo

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04-17-2014, 01:07 AM (This post was last modified: 04-17-2014 01:27 AM by Venom Animal.)
Post: #52
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
Hey guys, do you remember when every other game article was about how games were racist? I feel like there was some single point in time where it wash fashionable to contextualize everything into an issue of racism, and then suddenly it was fashionable to contextualize everything into sexism. Some time after Resident Evil 5, I think...

[Image: 645278120_7z6ca-L.jpg]

Discussion on the internet tends to shift very quickly into back and forth accusations of prejudice because it's very easy and effective. It is very easy to win an argument, very easy to cause someone to lose their job, ruin their life or cause them to die by accusing them of a crime that is vaguely defined and difficult to prove, and that anyone could secretly be guilty of. There's a good word for this kind of hysterical finger-pointing with drastic consequences: Witch-Hunting.

This is why I preach and have always preached that accusations should be withheld unless eyewitness or material proof of illegal action is available. This applies to racism, sexism, bigotry, terrorism, pedophilia, rape and anything else for which the mere accusation could ruin a person's life. This is a very serious issue and should not be taken lightly because actual human lives hang in the balance in a very real way, so talking like "Is this person sexist? Could they be?" is incredibly dangerous. People have died over less serious accusations than that.

Furthermore, it is impossible for a piece of media to be prejudiced because it is inanimate, but it may reflect the way that values and perceptions change based on language, geography and the passage of time. Criticizing the way people from other times or other cultures express themselves through media only reflects your own small-mindedness. Understand that others may view the world differently, understand that their intentions are good and more importantly that they are harmless---that a book, song or painting cannot hurt you, and move on.

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04-17-2014, 02:06 AM
Post: #53
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
Well said.

I remember the whole black zombies are racist thing now and feel like an idiot that I forgot about it.
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04-17-2014, 02:41 AM
Post: #54
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
Nothing bad should ever happen to black people in games.
Replace "black people" with "women" and you have this shit argument.

Everyone should just shut up for a second.
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04-17-2014, 05:21 AM
Post: #55
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
I see nothing in OP's statements to prove that Kojima hates women. If I had some time I'd go over it more but to cut it short, using his wife's opinion as evidence of some sexist agenda against women in his games hardly proves that kojima hates women. At the very least it just proves his wife isn't a dike.
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04-17-2014, 05:41 AM
Post: #56
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
(04-16-2014 11:06 PM)Smiley Wrote:  Then you get to the NSFW sexy Shinkawa art which has no bearing on the game itself but very well drawn to say the least.
I think that bit of art is meant to be some kind of omake, just a little extra for the fans, even if we don't see such a thing happening in the game. If it's anything, there was MGS2 concept of art of Solid Snake, showing him wearing a penguin suit....which I have a feeling is meant to reference Penguin Adventure.

Quote:EDIT:

And here we are with a Yahtzee review. Does he talk about the women. He might.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/v...es-40-Demo
Yay; Yahtzee. Big Grin

...the others Wrote:stuff
Damn. 2007 sometimes feels like yesterday to me, and yet I completely forgot how people raged over how RE5 was racist. All those years back, and here we are now, albeit with a different "victim". We've got a long ways to go, don'tcha think? Oh, and as for that picture, if I were to take it seriously, I'd say the image on the right is racist, because it's two different species (assuming robots can be a species, though).
Though, Punished Animal makes a good point about how accusations work, especially on the Internet. Oh sure; Internet arguments are like partaking in the Special Olympics.....but, 4chan is a different story. My friend once told me how someone on 4chan went out of his way to cause trouble for some guy in real-life; I think the guy was some radio talk-show host. Unfortunately I completely forget the necessary details, but I never forgot the important part, that 4chan actually means business. No wonder I don't go there; if I screwed up or pissed someone off (both which are quite easy to do there) I'd be in some serious shit.

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COD:BO Official Website (with Community forums)
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04-17-2014, 06:30 AM (This post was last modified: 04-17-2014 06:34 AM by Da Vinci.)
Post: #57
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
(04-17-2014 01:07 AM)Punished Animal Wrote:  Hey guys, do you remember when every other game article was about how games were racist?

Better yet, remember when games articles were about games? You know, back before...everything gaming is today?

Those were fun times, i heart you FF9.

The medium might have been smaller, but atleast people didn't bring politics into it, dreadful state gaming is in i tell you.

By the way, can anyone link me the NSFW Shinkawa art? Kinda interested in seeing it

Edit: Why is Kojima misogynist again? Oh who am i kidding, everything is misogynist nowadays, kotaku/polygon/escapist/rock paper shotgun/destructoid/etc taught me that with their incredibly vague notions of what "hatred of women" is.
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04-17-2014, 07:15 AM
Post: #58
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
(04-17-2014 06:30 AM)Da Vinci Wrote:  
(04-17-2014 01:07 AM)Punished Animal Wrote:  Hey guys, do you remember when every other game article was about how games were racist?

Better yet, remember when games articles were about games? You know, back before...everything gaming is today?

Those were fun times, i heart you FF9.

The medium might have been smaller, but atleast people didn't bring politics into it, dreadful state gaming is in i tell you.
Too true. I can understand the fascination of political debates and all, but quite often, politics spoil everything. I learned that the hard way over a decade ago, being with my brother and his friend, as I had a fixation with political debating but my brother detested it and told me to stop....though I think it's also a case that my presence was cramping his image, being I was his little brother and all...but I understood how politics could be a spoil in various settings. Nowadays, it seems like people will bring up politics in order to sound more enlightened than others, regardless of what is being spoken about. Though, I'm probably guilty of doing that too, in fairness...plus, politics are complicated, and grasping politics can be an advantage sometimes.

Quote:By the way, can anyone link me the NSFW Shinkawa art? Kinda interested in seeing it
Here you go, you sick fuck. Just kidding.

Quote:Edit: Why is Kojima misogynist again? Oh who am i kidding, everything is misogynist nowadays, kotaku/polygon/escapist/rock paper shotgun/destructoid/etc taught me that with their incredibly vague notions of what "hatred of women" is.
Yup. I did say earlier that "Adoration of the female form is tantamount to misogyny." I love the female form; if you ask me, it's more beautiful to behold than the male form, either philosophically (its ability to create life) or physically (curvaceousness...oh, and breasts). However, that makes me a pervert. If not a pervert, then a gynephile. But don't take my word for it; I've just had bad luck.

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04-17-2014, 08:09 AM (This post was last modified: 04-17-2014 08:46 AM by THEND.)
Post: #59
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
Liking puss...er, I mean the female form and sexual depictions is part of being straight. Omg he likes vaj kill him! Im gonna respond to rav when I get to a normal keyboard. Using a friends phone. The issue should be, do you respect women and to stay on topic, does kojima make a mockery of women and their advances Iin society. Personally I dont think so. Ive gotten women to be prettyhonest with me about their experiences in the military for example and it's not flattering what I was told...it was just reality. Metal gear solid is a series that uses a military setting and shows men and women being violated in every which way by a lifestyle that lpunishes the weak and rewards the strong. In no way should players expect either the men or the women to comw out unscathed.

Meryl insults men and prides herself on her ability to resist being attracted to men.

Naomi sees men and their desire to kill regardless of the consequences as a testament to their inferiority.

Raiden represents the player and now he is an androgynous dead beat daddy ninja that wears high heels.

Sunnys lab is guarded by a creepy moe loving otaku. Really, he is the future of Japan incarnate.

Theres more I could say about raiden but at the end of thw day, a majority of male gamers being told to stop playing videogames should be evidence enough of Kojimas disdain for the userbase. Before Metal Gear when did a game even ask you to care about the woman. Of course im going to save the girl over Otacon. That make Kojima sexist too?

Are u just writing a bitch article and playing devils advocate for research?

If Kojima ia sexist then war is pretty fun and good for everyone
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04-17-2014, 09:03 AM (This post was last modified: 04-17-2014 09:08 AM by Nike Schneider.)
Post: #60
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
Let me put this into perspective for you.

After writing my myth article regarding the "rape as a reward" fallacy, someone commented on Reddit about it. To summarize their opinion: I'm being "juvenile" for pointing out the logical leap one must take in order to make such a conclusion. I "do not understand" the objectification and brutalization of women. Finally, I am actually trying to "shift the conversation" and "dodge the issue."

Anybody who read the article without such a closed mind on the subject will realize that all I said is that in interactive medium such as video games, the plot moving forward, not specifics, are unlockable rewards much like how seeing the plot unfold, not the specifics of the plot, is the reward for continuing to watch a film or finishing a chapter of a book. Video games are simply interactive and thus require interaction for narrative purposes. Any arguments of "objectification and brutalization" can be had, just don't try to make an argument out of flawed logic that actually puts the whole of video gaming in a dangerous position.

And you're probably agreeing with some of what I just said unless you've already just simply thrown me together with everyone else who is critical of your hobby and refuse to acknowledge anything I may say now. Which brings me to my next point: I was more or less compared to Anita Sarkeesian in this thread. Why was I compared to an opportunist who has made a career out of herself recycling arguments about "tropes" that have been made since the dawn of fiction using overly sensationalist arguments about games she has no knowledge about and steals work from other women without compensation and permission? This, after comparing such people to Senator Joesph McCarthy?

So I'm comparable to an internet celebrity who makes money using other people's work without actually doing anything to help the cause she claims to be for? In addition to that I am also comparable to a power hungry statist? It's absolutely absurd.

All I'm saying is that a conversation is healthy and saying we shouldn't have this conversation is not healthy. I never said Kojima was sexist. At most I said he has written female characters poorly. We can go on about how that Redditor refuses to simply calm down and look at what I was saying instead choosing to project their vision of "the enemy" onto me. However, are you guys any different? I believe last week on these forums for saying that the "vaginabomb" was stupid I was accused of being "socially conscious" (in a negative way).

You guys, all of you, who follow this "its us vs them" tribal mentality are much closer to being McCarhyists. You are the ones who refuse to listen to opposition. You are the ones who would rather there be no conversation on certain subjects just because you think there is no conversation to be had. You are the ones who will paint people even remotely critical of whatever it is you're really into with a broad brush. McCarthy called them "commies," leftists use all kinds of words like "bigot" and you guys maybe the dreaded "ess jay dubya."

The ironic thing is that the McCarthyists simply feed into what their opposite is saying. The leftist tends to just call everyone and everything misogynistic, racist, and so forth, sometimes just flat out saying they hate men/white people/cisgendered people/people with jobs/etc. On the flip side of the same coin, the reactionaries (I like to call them broactionaries) call their opposition "SJW," degenerates, whiners, and sometimes just flat out use misogynistic or racist arguments to defend themselves.

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It should be the challenge of ideas. Except its the challenge of fear. The "left" fears that they will be further oppressed and history may repeat itself. You guys fear that your hobby won't be taken seriously and that you will find your beloved medium censored.

(05-22-2016 02:42 PM)Canucklehead Wrote:  The actual hero of Metal Gear is the player for putting up with all of its bullshit over the years.
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