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Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
04-15-2014, 03:37 PM
Post: #31
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
(04-15-2014 06:02 AM)Punished Singh Wrote:  


Japan is either made to look backwards or made to look like some courageous soldier in some bullshit culture war. This is then led to people either defending everything about it 100% or push for a cultural cold war mentality that only benefits western businessmen.

Seriously though, most of the industry criticism of Japan is usually found to be hypocritical or easy cheap points.

Indeed, people love putting things in black and white perspective so they can move about the rest of their day.

Interesting video, but he really only scratched the surface of the whole mess. There's a great book on the subject of the whole yakuza/sex trade by Jake Adelstein called Tokyo Vice. He really gives a good on-the-ground account of ugly the situation was over there ten years ago.

From what I hear the situation has improved a bit over the last few years, in part due to some of Jake's work, but it's still... well, you saw the video.

And, oh balls, I just found out they're working on a film version with Daniel Radcliffe. Interesting.

"When I first played Metal Gear Solid I was but a boy. Then after watching Snake and Meryl ride off into the sunset I was [SIC] suddenly had six hungry mouths to feed and a pile of bills to pay. Metal Gear ruined my childhood."

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04-16-2014, 02:22 PM
Post: #32
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
http://www.twinfinite.net/blog/2014/04/1...ear-solid/

(05-22-2016 02:42 PM)Canucklehead Wrote:  The actual hero of Metal Gear is the player for putting up with all of its bullshit over the years.
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04-16-2014, 03:52 PM (This post was last modified: 04-16-2014 04:04 PM by THEND.)
Post: #33
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
(04-13-2014 12:43 PM)Smiley Wrote:  Whether intentionally or unintentionally I cannot think of any woman in his own series that hasn't been either violated, objectified, harassed or punished to some degree.

Since these aren't real people being hurt, I don't see this as a bad thing. Like Kojima once said, all of the Metal Gear games are about war. I don't think anything else needs to be said beyond that. I've never felt like a woman's humiliation in any of the Metal Gear games was intended to entice the player with some obvious humorous exceptions. It's not like I get points for raping a character.....not even in MGSV.


(04-13-2014 01:13 PM)Punished Singh Wrote:  Someone came here like last month and brought up some good points on this subject but people shot her the fuck down (probably because she was being sensationalist on her end, but still) so she left. Actually I think I might have caused her to leave because I criticized both extremes of that argument and she thought I was particularly targeting her.

But yeah, Kojima tends to be pretty terrible when it comes to writing female characters. This isn't about "strong" females either since The Boss is pretty fucking strong and in a way so is Paz in Ground Zeroes when you consider she refused to give any information about MSF. They just usually feel so god damn 1-dimentional. I still don't get how The Boss was "charismatic." Could also be voice acting.

Her influence could make her charismatic. Just look at the Cobra Unit. Not a single one of them was shown to question The Boss's judgement throughout Operation Snake Eater. Compared to the "Sons of Liberty" or even, "Sons of Big Boss"...there was always inner conflict. No one could be trusted and almost always there was a backstab.


(04-13-2014 03:43 PM)Fight the Future Wrote:  
Quote:Interesting thing about the MGS3D renders for The Boss
3DS target audience?

Quote:Whatever the implication she seemed to get over it like it was nothing by the time MGS4 rolled around.

Meryl learned about the brutality of war... it was excessive but you can logically put it down as a character arc, an effective one or not. Whether or not this is down to her being a woman is up to interpretation, i.e. she wasn't up to the challenge like the real soldiers. The fact that she turns up at all in MGS4 is idiotic though never mind her apparent brain transplant.

Later on Kojima becomes less creative - the B&B Corps for example is complete shit with no writing or attempts at a personality involved. Awful.

I think when the full extent of Kojimas concepts are taken into consideration even an unnerving group of boss like the B&B can be seen to have some deeper relevance. Same goes of S.O.P...

MGS4 is probably more relevant to the average gamer than MGS2.

(04-13-2014 10:45 PM)Solidsuitlarry Wrote:  These are the times I wish there were more people in the soup forums who played the original Japanese language versions of the games so we can see how much of the apparent sexism comes from the source itself and how much was from the English localization.

From what I've seen a lot of what's lost is usually inherent in the plot anyways. Most of the voice actors in japan, seiyu...they're known for playing certain roles. What you see in Metal Gear is a "Fantasy Football" version of these characters essentially...all playing on Team Kojima. Most people playing Metal Gear in Japan can probably guess each characters' fate from their first few lines. I don't think there is any sexism in Metal Gear. Like the girl above mentioned...I just see it as shaming of nothing. If you're going to beautify war then yes, only bad people die and everyone else is perfectly happy.


(04-14-2014 08:41 AM)Old Gross Wrote:  I agree with Punished Animal's quote, in particular the concept of what defines misogyny. Adoration of the female form can be tantamount to misogyny. How, you ask? Well, as I see it, misogyny's definition is subject to individual perspective, but also dependent on how reactive the individual is. Lots of it is just as Animal described, that there's always, always something to complain about, that nothing is good enough. I hate to make it sound like I'm soliciting, but my videos could be an example of misogyny....though, to call them misogynistic just sounds pitiful in my opinion. But, what do I know, right? I'm male. My opinion doesn't count. I'm a man that made some videos which "exploit women" so therefore I'm a sick bastard who only sees women as objects.
Whether intentionally or not, these recent SJW bloggers and so-called journalists have conditioned some people to think a certain way regarding the treatment of women in videogames (in particular). Or, maybe the blogs didn't condition people per se; maybe some people developed this way of thinking long before exposing themselves to SJW rants. But even so, these so-called feminists are just perpetuating it all, and it's going on so much that I'm convinced that there's some agenda....one at the least being the objective of achieving proper influence in the industry, which has sort of succeeded (Ms. Sarkeesian being involved in the development of the upcoming Mirror's Edge game).

Feminism separates the men from the pussy-men. That's it. Women only want men. What do feminists want again? Lesbians want women obviously.


(04-14-2014 12:51 PM)Smiley Wrote:  I'm aware of the cultural difference, but I would still hope Japan would kind of rise from the "men come first and women come second" beliefs of the past. The US isn't blameless and there's still debates going on to this day about equal rights in payment, etc. I will say that as a man I am glad to see the issue being raised, and more women speaking out. I'm glad to see MGS has grown in popularity so female gamers can even criticize Kojima's work because game developers should be held accountable especially if they're selling it to consumers. He's not being branded the as the devil. It's just criticism about his story and characters. Like every issue though, you have to sift through the legitimate problems over the endless wave of nitpicks. Are we nitpicking? I'd like to think my issue is women in MGS as a whole rather than the individual examples I've given.

I don't believe the Western appeal is always right either. There was a time where Kojima actually cared about what female gamers were interested in. Raiden as he was in MGS2 partially existed for women, and I'm sort of sad to say it was the West that shunned him to the point where he has been changed around to what he is today to appease the haters.

But in the case of MGS where the writing seems influenced by the West and the bulk of main characters are all tied around that to a point. It's not just attractive, erotic women in his games that are being criticized. And it's not bad for men to enjoy their eye candy like Bayonetta or Jill Valentine. But with MGS nearly all the women seem to be objectified or victimized to the point where it loses its originality with a story so he might feel he has to take it to the extreme with his latest iteration. Either by design with Quiet or by narrative with Paz. And it's uncomfortable, which he intended though not just because the content is mature. More like the execution comes off as immature. And is that a cultural thing, or is Kojima just a poor writer? I don't think he's a bad game director, but the writing has been questionable. He might benefit with having someone take over that position as a lead writer for future games. And I hope he does.

[Image: tumblr_mc9yn1WgVA1r1yhdwo3_500.gif]

EDIT: As a male, should I be offended?

(04-15-2014 06:45 AM)Punished Singh Wrote:  The "exceptionalism" here is that it was made by a western developer and it is okay because of this.

I could go on and on about this recent hypocrisy. As an industry you certainly want to protect your interests (you know for a fact Japan does) but if we're going to have award shows and give special accolades to specific games or designers, there needs to be a serious loss of bias. There's no doubt that a lot of the hate toward Kojima is based sorely on the fact that he's from Japan. I wouldn't call it racism but rather, professional discrimination. Sure, "Walking Dead" the game is probably great but does it deserve game of the year and serious accolades? OR TLOU aka Freud the game? No....I don't think these games do anything for gaming that hasn't been done before....at least in the case of TLOU it's a game that's needed to put up a good front for the Library of Congress but it's hardly the post-modern masterpiece MGS2 is. At the end of the day it's a videogame about a young girl who fucks her dad for killing niggers.

(04-15-2014 08:30 AM)Smiley Wrote:  Promoting cosplay isn't bad. There's some really creative cosplayers out there who like the challenge to detail. But shameless eroticism being used to sell some toys and get girls wearing little as possible when they dress like her might not be the best way to show off your character.

And Quiet might be a great female character in the long run. But you wouldn't know that from the way they've been promoting her which has been sleazy to the say the lease. Aside from her physical appearance along with the CGI renders of her from every angle, what else do we know about this character?

And if Kojima's agenda is promoting cosplay all around then why haven't we gotten full renders of Skullface, Code Talker or any of the other characters?

Sex sells. The worst way is the best way. Gawking in disgust at the female form is something for the loud minority..otherwise none of us would be here.

EDIT:

A small edit. The irony of Quiet is she was probably made FOR FEMALE FANS TO BEGIN WITH.
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04-16-2014, 04:12 PM
Post: #34
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
(04-16-2014 03:52 PM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  [Image: tumblr_mc9yn1WgVA1r1yhdwo3_500.gif]

EDIT: As a male, should I be offended?

Actually, plenty of males were offended.

(04-16-2014 03:52 PM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  Sex sells.

You do realize that this is the very thing being suggested by the critics, right?

(05-22-2016 02:42 PM)Canucklehead Wrote:  The actual hero of Metal Gear is the player for putting up with all of its bullshit over the years.
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04-16-2014, 04:56 PM
Post: #35
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
(04-16-2014 02:22 PM)Punished Singh Wrote:  http://www.twinfinite.net/blog/2014/04/1...ear-solid/
Shared it on my Facebook. Smile

(04-16-2014 03:52 PM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  Feminism separates the men from the pussy-men. That's it. Women only want men. What do feminists want again? Lesbians want women obviously.
Huh. Now that you mention, there are times when I think I'm a "pussy-man", or at least a pussy; if it were true it'd be because of shallow reasons anyway. But I'm certainly no sycophant; I don't adhere to the SJW blogs' ideals....but then again, I don't even read any of them (or at least much of them). Maybe as such I'm in no place to judge. Sad

(04-16-2014 04:12 PM)Punished Singh Wrote:  
(04-16-2014 03:52 PM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  [Image: tumblr_mc9yn1WgVA1r1yhdwo3_500.gif]
EDIT: As a male, should I be offended?
Actually, plenty of males were offended.
I think I recall some people being upset by having to tolerate seeing Raiden naked, but I doubt it was anything significant to remember since this was back in 2001. I do remember on some Yahoo! groups that people thought MGS2 sucked. In fairness, MGS2 sure felt alien from its predecessor.
As for me, I wasn't offended. Clearly it was a circumstantial moment in the game. But, if one is truly curious, I did ponder "Why is Raiden covering his junk? He's a special-forces soldier; he shouldn't have to feel embarassed about the enemy seeing his genitals," and that they could've pixel-censored his groin. I told my mom about this and she said Raiden would have every right to feel embarrassed, but nevermind that. But, it wasn't until about 2010 that I read online that there was a philosophical justification for having us play as Raiden without any clothes on; the site explained a bunch of other stuff in MGS2, stuff that most people probably wouldn't comprehend. Point here is that that stuff may tie in with why Raiden was grasping his groin the whole time (even when punching, etc).

I actually never collected any info about males who were upset with that moment in the game. Now I can't make comparisons if something like that were to ever be repeated again. I can only imagine how people would respond. But if they get offended, it shows their ignorance, because from what I can tell, it's not like we're being forced to see penises shoved in our faces or anything. Plus I doubt the feminists would be offended....in fact I think they'd like it, either because they're aroused by it or because they see it as some kind of redemption against the evil, close-minded, oppressive male race (or some bullshit).

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04-16-2014, 05:55 PM (This post was last modified: 04-16-2014 06:11 PM by Nike Schneider.)
Post: #36
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
(04-16-2014 04:56 PM)Old Gross Wrote:  
(04-16-2014 03:52 PM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  Feminism separates the men from the pussy-men. That's it. Women only want men. What do feminists want again? Lesbians want women obviously.
Huh. Now that you mention, there are times when I think I'm a "pussy-man", or at least a pussy; if it were true it'd be because of shallow reasons anyway.

His argument was absurdly shallow...


...and ironically calling back the days of Raiden hating.

While you clearly seem to have forgotten, the response to Raiden was, well, the equivalent if not worse to the sensationalist response to Chico's Tape #4. It was one thing to be disappointed in having to play as random-new-character instead of Solid Snake. It was another to then question the sexuality of people who either were fine with it or understood its purpose within the game. Or question Kojima's sexuality. Or go full-conspiracist mode and bring up "the gay agenda." All laden with all kinds of homophobic and demasculizing language. Holy shit, it's just a game.

This was typical of the gaming audience back then though, promoted heavily by a growing gaming media that was just-as-in-the-pocket with game publishers as now and trying hard to be "cool." It's funny actually. That media is now definitely trying to jump on another bandwagon altogether to be "cool" because the stereotypical gamer is anything but since 2000. Not sure if because the "cool" thing in music and film in the age of hashtag activism is having a progressive image or if it actually does allow for the entire medium to be widely acceptable because of similar reasons. Either way, ever notice that "gamers" in the media look like liberal arts students?

Regardless, if you belong to either camp and subscribe to the all-hype internet-only "battle" I'd say you were the left-behind demographic that was pretty much created by the media in order to allow for the easy creation of titles that please you, since "the graphics are better?" was getting old. First it was just explosions and numetal music with the "M" logo slapped on the front, now its strong female characters with overall progressive messages. The person angrily saying Ground Zeroes rewards players with rape today was the guy angrily telling everyone who preferred Super Smash Bros over Dead or Alive a cocksucking faggot who likes games for babies.

Quote:Our beloved monsters -- enjoy yourselves.

(05-22-2016 02:42 PM)Canucklehead Wrote:  The actual hero of Metal Gear is the player for putting up with all of its bullshit over the years.
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04-16-2014, 06:26 PM
Post: #37
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
Oh I remember people being upset with playing as Raiden instead of Snake. In fact, I was disappointed as well. I was specifically talking about having to play as him naked, though.

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04-16-2014, 06:36 PM (This post was last modified: 04-16-2014 06:38 PM by THEND.)
Post: #38
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
Since you deleted ur comment Ravi I won't quote you but:

If anything this gives further legitimacy to the ESRB. At the end of the day though there's this question of, "fun". I know game designers have tried experimental things with the medium to minimize the amount of inputs required to progress in the games to obviously varying degrees of success but whether you're a hardcore gamer or a relatively casual one, the issue is always whether or not your game was fun and to whom.

This I think is where Japanese game designers excel whereas American game designers are willing to make gameplay the sacrifice right off the bat. For all we know, tone and plot could be extremely political and social tools in Japan and since we don't speak the language or understand the implications of certain terms, we just wouldn't be able to get them and even if we did we wouldn't care so the more fantastical the setting the better anyway. Gundam being the most obvious of example where liberal and conservative ideals about how Japan should be run have been portrayed in an entertaining way for the last forty plus years.

What makes an "adult" game an adult game? Obviously there's XXX...but mature is different. Does a Mature game have to require an ID to buy so the adults can play when their kids go to sleep or is a well-written, carefully plotted, and balanced gameplay experience the turning point for Mature vs. crude gaming? What changes for the player ? Really, nothing, right? Basic inputs and maneuverability of the avatar in the game isn't going to make or break whether the gameplay was mature versus immature unless it's a question of skill...but the tools are the same. There's no entry fee that is ultimately different than that of a child when it comes to "Mature" gaming. I think it's still being debated what it means to be a "mature" game.

Kojima makes a good point about his belief that certain content needs to be in his game in order for the medium to advance. Kojima may not have the writing chops to properly convey certain real-world issues effectively but once they have been conveyed there is no going back. In a way, Kojima is doing the industry a big favor. I would go so far as to say that this is very much an internal issue with the industry rather than a marketing one. It piggy backs greatly off of what a European designer said on twitter regarding MGSV's length, his being the belief that defending the length of a game is a backtrack for the medium. The similarity is this: right now, content is a big deal. If there's ever a sex scene, or a murder scene, or a strange relationship, or a controversial story, it gets way too much press. The game is no longer based on the merit of its gameplay and suddenly, that one game (imaginary) ends up being the problem with ALL games. When Kojima makes these statements about losing his job or whatnot, I believe he's really speaking about videogames as a whole. If there's ever a controversial comic or film we walk away...politicians don't ban films and comics. In a way, Nintendo did a great thing by allying with the White House for its exercising campaign to fight obesity in America because it was a government acknowledgement of the medium at large. Had that never happened the whole industry could very well have been swallowed by a bevy of nitpicky controversies and frivolous lawsuits.

For me gameplay is the most important but Kojima is only right in being controversial for one reason and that's because if the boundaries are not pushed the industry will implode on itself or be picked about by pseudo-intellectual vultures with too much money and time until the whole industry is nothing but a a pussy-whipped ad for Coca Cola and Maybelline.

EDIT: shucks u deleted ur comment...no wonder i was having so much trouble with this post.
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04-16-2014, 07:27 PM
Post: #39
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
You mean the comment Gross is replying to?

(04-16-2014 06:26 PM)Old Gross Wrote:  Oh I remember people being upset with playing as Raiden instead of Snake. In fact, I was disappointed as well. I was specifically talking about having to play as him naked, though.

That was brought up a lot as well.

(04-16-2014 06:36 PM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  If there's ever a controversial comic or film we walk away...politicians don't ban films and comics.

Why do gamers act like they're being nailed to a cross? You do realize that comics, and yes film, were subject of varying types of political and social scrutiny, yes? When has a politician successfully banned a video game?

(05-22-2016 02:42 PM)Canucklehead Wrote:  The actual hero of Metal Gear is the player for putting up with all of its bullshit over the years.
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04-16-2014, 07:41 PM
Post: #40
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
Why do gamers act like they're the first to be scrutinized? Should they lay down and take the false generalizations and baseless comments? I think all things should expect to be scrutinized. If the SJW crowd (since they're popular now I guess I really dont' know) had their day the entire gaming community would simply ignore them and games would go about on their nilly way. Scrutiny is fine, and so is rebuttal. Kojima is taking the scrutiny and defending his product regardless of it. That's the correct route to take in my opinion. The Jesus way is to turn the other cheek. Is that what you're saying the gaming community should do? Allow a loud minority of people characterize an entire industry as a boys club that hates women?

If McCarthy had his way there'd be no films as we know them. We'd still be labeling people communists and people would still be under the constant fear of a blacklist. Now you literally have to kill a LOT of people to be ousted from the film industry. Historically, had the entire world not been as entranced by the versatility of the medium as the people of the United States was it would have only lasted so long.
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04-16-2014, 07:46 PM (This post was last modified: 04-16-2014 08:09 PM by Smiley.)
Post: #41
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
(04-16-2014 03:52 PM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  Since these aren't real people being hurt, I don't see this as a bad thing. Like Kojima once said, all of the Metal Gear games are about war. I don't think anything else needs to be said beyond that. I've never felt like a woman's humiliation in any of the Metal Gear games was intended to entice the player with some obvious humorous exceptions. It's not like I get points for raping a character.....not even in MGSV.

Real or not is irrelevant. They're characters within a story, and a good story makes you feel something for them whether you relate to them, like them, hate them, root for them, or just have an interest in where they go or what purpose they serve.

MGS works to make you feel something for these characters, but a lot of times the emotional aspects you feel towards the women come across as unoriginal and/or cheap depending. How heavily reliant is Kojima with making maternal characters have their children taken from them to make you feel sympathetic? How reliant is he to make the women humiliated through torture or violence just for the same effect? In my Meryl example I brought up that her character goes absolutely nowhere with that assault. There's no character growth to be had or any consequence leading to it. If she was just kidnapped, put in a cell and rescued then her character in MGS4 would still come across as no different which leads me to wonder why even have it in the first place. The impact those lines had in MGS were evidently meaningless down the road which undermines the overall story. Now we have the matter of the second bomb in GZ. A bomb in Paz where no one would look yet they still felt the need to brutalize Paz even further and throw in another one. It's just these details that just make me think Kojima is ignorant, and unintentionally disregarding his female characters as objects of sympathy or lust. You catch Meryl in her underwear out of some easter egg fanservice. Then you feel sympathy when she's tortured and shamed. Paz is no different with the easter eggs of Peace Walker and her fate in Ground Zeroes. Although as I said, it's becoming more extreme now.

Quote:[Image: tumblr_mc9yn1WgVA1r1yhdwo3_500.gif]

EDIT: As a male, should I be offended?

As has been said, some males were. The game played this moment for laughs, confusion and mystery more so than to sexualize Raiden, but it still humiliated the character. If it was a naked woman it would still stir people up because women continually face being sexualized in games enough as it is so this would just be another example at humiliating and degrading another female in a game.

Another case is the President grabbing Raiden by the balls because he assumed Raiden was a woman. Raiden gets assaulted, but only because the President thought he was a woman. MGS3 played a similar scene with Snake, but it actually served a purpose because Volgin used the assault to determine that Snake wasn't his lover Raikov (who himself is a joke character of Raiden exaggerated to fit the gay feminine qualities that outraged gamers perceived him as). If Raiden was a woman and the President randomly grabbed her crotch does that make the situation better or worse? The humiliation of Raiden doesn't stop there, but these are examples to show that Kojima intended them to be awkward and funny. And ironically Raiden was partially created because women wanted to play a character like him over one like Snake. But when was the last time Snake had a golden shower?

Quote:Sex sells. The worst way is the best way. Gawking in disgust at the female form is something for the loud minority..otherwise none of us would be here.

EDIT:

A small edit. The irony of Quiet is she was probably made FOR FEMALE FANS TO BEGIN WITH.

Sex sells is horrible justification. It's the easiest way to throw around the poorest forms of expression.

I have no problem with eye candy, but at some point it gets boring, annoying or offensive just to see it portrayed so sleazily.

I doubt the female audience was the target intended outside of cosplay purposes. And the cosplay itself is to encourage women to dress as little as possible in fishnets and bras. That's fine if that's the case, but it doesn't do anything for Quiet as a character. All she is promoted as is eye candy. That's the only appeal we have. And that's kind of boring for a character/story driven series like MGS. Istead of Kojima justifying her appearance by saying why her character would dress like that he instead explains why he designed her that way: Erotic looking, cosplay promoting and figure selling. Her looks alone don't invest me into her role in the game nor does it tell me anything about her. And I hate to repeat myself, but where are the full male cosplay renders? If you want to promote cosplay then give MGS fans all around the same support. Instead, it's just Quiet.

[Image: iEvhnuZkVdiu5.gif]
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04-16-2014, 07:59 PM (This post was last modified: 04-16-2014 08:19 PM by Nike Schneider.)
Post: #42
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
(04-16-2014 07:41 PM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  Why do gamers act like they're the first to be scrutinized?

Yeah, why? The ESRB is hardly as restrictive as the Comics Code Authority and MPAA ever were. Unlike comics and film, only a single video game in the United States has been banned... for containing accidental child porn. The only self-regulating thing that was more open during its early years was the "Parental Advisory" sticker for music... with exception to Frank Zappa's instrumental album.

If you want to talk about countries where video games have been banned, look at their lists of other medium. They are usually significantly longer.

(04-16-2014 07:41 PM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  Should they lay down and take the false generalizations and baseless comments?

Never said that. But let me ask you this, where was the overall outrage at NRA executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre saying that it was violent video games that caused mass shootings?

There's plenty of abhorrent discussions being had, but there are some legitimate ones. By simply painting all of it with "SJW" or whatever boogeyman you guys want to use, you simply demand to stamp out any and all discourse. You end up being no better than the very people you claim to be in opposition to.

(04-16-2014 07:41 PM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  If the SJW crowd (since they're popular now I guess I really dont' know) had their day the entire gaming community would simply ignore them and games would go about on their nilly way. Scrutiny is fine, and so is rebuttal. Kojima is taking the scrutiny and defending his product regardless of it. That's the correct route to take in my opinion. The Jesus way is to turn the other cheek. Is that what you're saying the gaming community should do? Allow a loud minority of people characterize an entire industry as a boys club that hates women?

Actually, that would be a great reaction. If you don't believe me, look at how South Park reacts to criticism in comparison to Comedy Central's other show The Colbert Report which undoubtedly fired some people over #CancelColbert. Instead you simply perpetuate tribalist thinking and this completely blinds you from legitimate concerns for a growing medium since you simply associate it with opposition. Sometimes you just go full reactionary as well, because you need a support group against "them."

EDIT: Also wanted to say that you sound like the people who whine about "internet bullying" and when people are like "dude just ignore the trolls," or "hahaha what just block them" they shake their head with passion and explain that would be "EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANT."

As for Kojima, he simply defended Quiet and moved on. He hasn't addressed anything else. Doesn't have to.

(04-16-2014 07:41 PM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  If McCarthy had his way...

You're comparing a congressman with heavy influence with people on the internet. Out of all major publications, there is only one (The Guardian) that published an overall rant about how Ground Zeroes is just an attack on women. Lucy O'Brien from IGN gets cited a lot, but outside of her "rape as a reward" argument, her article and concerns were not unfounded. Disagree with her, that's fine, but the reaction she is getting is typical clique reaction to "the other guys!"

(04-16-2014 07:41 PM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  Historically, had the entire world not been as entranced by the versatility of the medium as the people of the United States was it would have only lasted so long.

Film? Are you joking?

(05-22-2016 02:42 PM)Canucklehead Wrote:  The actual hero of Metal Gear is the player for putting up with all of its bullshit over the years.
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04-16-2014, 08:19 PM (This post was last modified: 04-16-2014 08:27 PM by THEND.)
Post: #43
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
(04-16-2014 07:46 PM)Smiley Wrote:  
(04-16-2014 03:52 PM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  Since these aren't real people being hurt, I don't see this as a bad thing. Like Kojima once said, all of the Metal Gear games are about war. I don't think anything else needs to be said beyond that. I've never felt like a woman's humiliation in any of the Metal Gear games was intended to entice the player with some obvious humorous exceptions. It's not like I get points for raping a character.....not even in MGSV.

Real or not is irrelevant. They're characters within a story, and a good story makes you feel something for them whether you relate to them, like them, hate them, root for them, or just have an interest in where they go or what purpose they serve.

MGS works to make you feel something for these characters, but a lot of times the emotional aspects you feel towards the women come across as unoriginal and/or cheap depending. How heavily reliant is Kojima with making maternal characters have their children taken from them to make you feel sympathetic? How reliant is he to make the women humiliated through torture or violence just for the same effect? In my Meryl example I brought up that her character goes absolutely nowhere with that assault. There's no character growth to be had or any consequence leading to it. If she was just kidnapped, put in a cell and rescued then her character in MGS4 would still come across as no different which leads me to wonder why even have it in the first place. The impact those lines had in MGS were evidently meaningless which undermines the story. Now we have the matter of the second bomb in GZ. A bomb in Paz where no one would look yet they still felt the need to brutalize Paz even further and throw in another one. It's just disregard for these details that just makes me think Kojima is ignorant and unintentionally disregarding his female characters as objects of sympathy or lust. You catch Meryl in her underwear out of some easter egg fanservice. Then you feel sympathy when she's tortured and shamed. Paz is no different with the easter eggs of Peace Walker and her fate in Ground Zeroes. Although as I said, it's becoming more extreme now.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I think real vs. fantasy is important. You make some serious points about Kojima's treatment of Meryl and Paz but at the end of the day, women aren't as physically strong on average as men but you completely forget to mention the B&B unit. Every one of these girls is sexualized beyond belief right after you defeat them and even worse, after hearing about their traumatic childhoods but at the end of the day, this isn't a real woman.




Not only that but those gestures....is she, RAPING the player when Snake is on the ground? Switch the genders and what do you get?


Quote:[Image: tumblr_mc9yn1WgVA1r1yhdwo3_500.gif]

EDIT: As a male, should I be offended?
Quote:As has been said, some males were. The game played this moment for laughs, confusion and mystery more so than to sexualize Raiden, but it still humiliated the character. If it was a naked woman it would still stir people up because women continually face being sexualized in games enough as it is so this would just be another example at humiliating and degrading another female in a game.

Another case is the President grabbing Raiden by the balls because he assumed Raiden was a woman. Raiden gets assaulted, but only because the President thought he was a woman. MGS3 played a similar scene with Snake, but it actually served a purpose because Volgin used the assault to determine that Snake wasn't his lover Raikov (who himself is a joke character of Raiden exaggerated to fit the gay feminine qualities that outraged gamers perceived him as). If Raiden was a woman and the President randomly grabbed her crotch does that make the situation better or worse? The humiliation of Raiden doesn't stop there, but these are examples to show that Kojima intended them to be awkward and funny. And ironically Raiden was partially created because women wanted to play a character like him over one like Snake. But when was the last time Snake had a golden shower?

Okay fine you got me there. But what about the sexual assault of the B&B unit in MGS4 after they get out of their suits or as Otacon so appropriately states, "come out" of their suits? As if now they're ready to seduce him and raise the poor old man's blood pressure to death?

Quote:Sex sells. The worst way is the best way. Gawking in disgust at the female form is something for the loud minority..otherwise none of us would be here.

EDIT:

A small edit. The irony of Quiet is she was probably made FOR FEMALE FANS TO BEGIN WITH.

Quote:Sex sells is horrible justification. It's the easiest way to throw around the poorest forms of expression.

I have no problem with eye candy, but at some point it gets boring, annoying or offensive just to see it portrayed so sleazily.

(04-16-2014 07:46 PM)Smiley Wrote:  I doubt the female audience was the target intended outside of cosplay purposes. And the cosplay itself is to encourage women to dress as little as possible in fishnets and bras. That's fine if that's the case, but it doesn't do anything for Quiet character. All she is promoted as is eye candy. And that's kind of boring for a character/story driven series like MGS. Her looks alone don't invest me into her role in the game nor does it tell me anything about her. And I hate to repeat myself, but where are the full male cosplay renders?

Kojima is king of Metal Gear. If Omi Gibson wants to dress as Quiet to impress him, who are we to stop her? One might even say we would be sexist for trying to stop her.

Ya have to wonder why we're having this debate....aren't most of us guys?
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04-16-2014, 08:23 PM
Post: #44
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
(04-16-2014 08:19 PM)nanoMACHINEgun Wrote:  Ya have to wonder why we're having this debate....aren't most of us guys?

You want to be the ever vigilant defender of video game against the shadowy group of Tumblr users who seek to resurrect McCarthy and ban video games forever by defending it against the accusations of misogyny and... then you say shit like this.

(05-22-2016 02:42 PM)Canucklehead Wrote:  The actual hero of Metal Gear is the player for putting up with all of its bullshit over the years.
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04-16-2014, 08:53 PM (This post was last modified: 04-16-2014 08:57 PM by THEND.)
Post: #45
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
to Ravi:

The outrage over the shooting sprees prompted a serious examination by the Obama administration over the legitimacy of videogame inspired violence and whether or not there was a causal relationship between videogames and shootings. Most gamers probably want to chill out and play their games. You, since...I've been compared to other people for some reason.....probably want to enjoy your games that you choose to play. You run a videogame website.

If there is ever proven to be a causal link between videogames and shootings, or illegal sexual deviancy, or anything else we as a society would call, "not gud" then obviously those elements would want to be isolated, examined, and probably exorcised from the industry at large.

Metal Gear puts me in a good mood. At the very most I've chosen to let the controversies blow over but when I saw this thread and the amount of effort other people seemed to be putting into it, I decided maybe this might not be a bad time to look at it as more than simply a pseudo-intellectual videogame about muh military industrial complex....that maybe there might be someone on here that takes it seriously like I do. So this debate about feminism, since the topic is about whether or not Kojima is a misogynistic Jap with a jingoistic understanding of sexual roles that predates the Meiji Restoration, I have come to the conclusion that Kojima himself probably prefers a traditional relationship but his games aren't indicative of that. I don't think his treatment of Meryl, Olga, or Quiet are any worse or better than any treatment of women anywhere. If I were to guess, I would say that people like Anita S. want to make videogames for the female market and simply see consulting from a feminist angle as an easy way to shake hands, fuck whoever they have to and get a good promotion and eventually their own team. I only say this because Ravi, you're saying some very unfounded things and making some outlandish assumptions about me. So in my opinion, considering how awful vile the world is, I don't see this controversy regarding Kojima's treatment of female characters now or in the past as particularly real or even existent. I don't think any male with a penis and the potential to use it by means of access to a wet, ready, and willing vagina really cares whether women depicted in a fictionalized setting for a bevy of men that either can't get laid or just want to relax see women depicted in such a way. And I think, if women really cared about how videogames are developed and for whom, they'd get into game design. I think with time this will happen. I've seen plenty of women with their game boy advances playing cooking mama...so many.

Story wise...these things are okay..so long as such products are being marketed to the right audience. I can't remember the last time a game store even had genre related categories to be honest...so of course there wasn't an adult section. Kojima's no more mysoginistic than you or me or anyone else. He's just the one with the best game and he's not an American game designer. American game designers don't come under this sort of unfounded scrutiny....where's the Duke Nukem complaining?

There should be games for women...I don't think games should be inherently sexist or maybe the right word is, unnecessarily so. But Kojima is the low-hanging fruit and he knows it. Nothing changes by this assumption of Kojima being misogynistic and games won't be more or less sensitive to women either. God of War 1, 2, and 3 are perfectly good examples.

Kojima's a man. He's just not an American one. If there's anything from Metal Gear that we could learn, it's that we should all find the nearest weight bench and start using it. That little fat kid Kojima made metal gear solid 2 for ain't gonna get any skinnier waiting for mgsv to come out. He's gotta get up and do something with his life in the meantime.

The only controversy here is there is one. Hopefully when The Phantom Pain comes out we'll have a lot more to defend from people like A. Sarkeesian, and you.

edit:

I didn't see that comment up there. I think you missed the point. Women invented feminism. What does that say about "power" and who holds it. Do you see what I mean? I'm not saying it's always been a certain way. I'm just saying, should we as gamers be picking apart aspects of a game to make sure women will enjoy them? If so, why should that be? Is that such a bad question to ask, Ravi? Or should we just be self-absorbed douchebags that know more than everyone else like you?
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