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Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
04-14-2014, 06:16 AM
Post: #16
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
I wouldn't consider anyone a sexist/bigot/misogynist/misandrist/etc unless they:
-refused to hire someone because of their gender
-harassed someone because of their gender
-supported things like gender-selective voting/property/custody rights, curfews, FGM/Circumcision, forced marriages etc
-refused patronage to a business or residence because of someone's gender

Et cetera, same goes for racism, homophobia or whatever else. When you throw accusations like that around so carelessly, like calling a writer sexist because their female characters aren't written the way you want them to be, you devalue the accusation itself.

The bigger issue is that any character can be called sexist because the 3rd Wave definition of sexism is absurdly vague. Is your female character defenseless and in need of help? That's sexist, women are just as capable as men! Is she strong and gruff and able to kick ass? That's sexist, she's just a "man with tits!" If she's wearing too little clothing then it's sexual objectification, but too much and it's sexual oppression. It's not up to MEN to say how much clothing a woman should wear! If she's too short and petite it's sexist and fetishizing children or whatever but if she's too tall and busty it's Bayonetta. Think you can avoid the issue by only having one gender in your game? WRONG. If it's an all-girl cast then it's a male fantasy, but if it's an all-male cast then oh dear god.

The only way to avoid this kind of criticism from the Tumblr and Kotaku crowd is to be a woman yourself, but you're just as well off ignoring it completely. Art should not answer to any form of censorship, including blind, reactionary rage whipped up by zealous members of the press.

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04-14-2014, 08:41 AM
Post: #17
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
I agree with Punished Animal's quote, in particular the concept of what defines misogyny. Adoration of the female form can be tantamount to misogyny. How, you ask? Well, as I see it, misogyny's definition is subject to individual perspective, but also dependent on how reactive the individual is. Lots of it is just as Animal described, that there's always, always something to complain about, that nothing is good enough. I hate to make it sound like I'm soliciting, but my videos could be an example of misogyny....though, to call them misogynistic just sounds pitiful in my opinion. But, what do I know, right? I'm male. My opinion doesn't count. I'm a man that made some videos which "exploit women" so therefore I'm a sick bastard who only sees women as objects.
Whether intentionally or not, these recent SJW bloggers and so-called journalists have conditioned some people to think a certain way regarding the treatment of women in videogames (in particular). Or, maybe the blogs didn't condition people per se; maybe some people developed this way of thinking long before exposing themselves to SJW rants. But even so, these so-called feminists are just perpetuating it all, and it's going on so much that I'm convinced that there's some agenda....one at the least being the objective of achieving proper influence in the industry, which has sort of succeeded (Ms. Sarkeesian being involved in the development of the upcoming Mirror's Edge game).

Oh and I remember Jacqui. I didn't dislike her, though one annoying trait of hers was that she was quite shrewd in her responses to my posts. I mean, dayamn. I didn't call it the "But Japan" argument....in fact, I never bothered to come up with a name for that argument; I don't think my description of the issue can carry a pithy, quick name like that. I mean....I don't think Jacqui's a bad person. It's just that her opinions of these issues were belligerent and, in my opinion, she was a bit ill-informed, though I assume she comes on believing that she knows the truth, and if she did think she knew the truth, take pity on her (or something) because we don't know the truth and neither does she.

And what is the truth? Well, it sort of ties in with the OP's inquiry. Is Kojima-san being a misogynist the truth? I don't know. Who are we to know? All we can do is speculate. Though I prefer not to be bothered by this stuff, at the same time it does leave some things to think about. But I use the "cultural differences" excuse even here. Women are treated differently in Japan than they are here in America, though I discovered that a lot of that's been changing. But even so I've yet to determine for absolute certain that Kojima-san is some woman-hater. I don't think he is; I never envisioned him to be a misogynist...but, who am I to say I'm right? I could be wrong.

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04-14-2014, 12:51 PM (This post was last modified: 04-14-2014 02:04 PM by Smiley.)
Post: #18
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
I'm aware of the cultural difference, but I would still hope Japan would kind of rise from the "men come first and women come second" beliefs of the past. The US isn't blameless and there's still debates going on to this day about equal rights in payment, etc. I will say that as a man I am glad to see the issue being raised, and more women speaking out. I'm glad to see MGS has grown in popularity so female gamers can even criticize Kojima's work because game developers should be held accountable especially if they're selling it to consumers. He's not being branded the as the devil. It's just criticism about his story and characters. Like every issue though, you have to sift through the legitimate problems over the endless wave of nitpicks. Are we nitpicking? I'd like to think my issue is women in MGS as a whole rather than the individual examples I've given.

I don't believe the Western appeal is always right either. There was a time where Kojima actually cared about what female gamers were interested in. Raiden as he was in MGS2 partially existed for women, and I'm sort of sad to say it was the West that shunned him to the point where he has been changed around to what he is today to appease the haters.

But in the case of MGS where the writing seems influenced by the West and the bulk of main characters are all tied around that to a point. It's not just attractive, erotic women in his games that are being criticized. And it's not bad for men to enjoy their eye candy like Bayonetta or Jill Valentine. But with MGS nearly all the women seem to be objectified or victimized to the point where it loses its originality with a story so he might feel he has to take it to the extreme with his latest iteration. Either by design with Quiet or by narrative with Paz. And it's uncomfortable, which he intended though not just because the content is mature. More like the execution comes off as immature. And is that a cultural thing, or is Kojima just a poor writer? I don't think he's a bad game director, but the writing has been questionable. He might benefit with having someone take over that position as a lead writer for future games. And I hope he does.

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04-14-2014, 01:39 PM
Post: #19
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
Yeah Japan isn't the wacky toyland people think, and despite being outside the influence of Western guilt culture and monotheism; it's still a very strict and serious place from what I can gather - women are there for marrying before they get past 25 etc. They have tried to appeal to wider audiences, after all they know how to sell bishonen archetypes; look at "Kaz". But I think complex writing and characterisation is beyond anything Konami will ever release. Characters like Sniper Wolf and The Boss are the closest things to strong female characters I can think of and there are still obvious problems.

Suck my fat one you cheap dime store hood
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04-14-2014, 08:12 PM (This post was last modified: 04-14-2014 08:18 PM by Da Vinci.)
Post: #20
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
I do like the based as fuck attitude Japan has, i don't want them to lose it honestly.

Besides, i don't want glorious nippon to suffer from the same "ideas" that feminism has been inserting into the west, bleh, keep that shit out of my beautiful east (which it has somewhat).

One thing that many american female and male bloggers seem to fail to grasp is that there are sizable cultural differences between places, you can't be so quick to place judgment onto a place you know nothing about despite your sociology classes and 5 min "research".

Kotaku (or Dakota as google translate suggests) is a good example of this poisonous attitude, the article where Jason Schreier said (and i quote): "As you can see, the sorceress was designed by a 14-year-old boy. Perhaps game development studios should stop hiring teenagers? At least they're cheap, I guess."

What brought on this outrage?

A FUCKING TRAILER (for a game that at the time hadn't even come out ).

It's really hard for me to sympathize with the "socially conscious" crowd, when this is the sort of attitude they display, this almost belligerent attitude towards what they find "wrong" in society, and they WILL find something to complain about, it's their job to be offended after all.

It's even hypocritical when it comes to kotaku given that they condemn miniscule things like this, yet i have seen them publish cosplay from Japan that is not exactly "kid friendly", and that's not even getting into the things published by senior correspondent Brian Ashcraft, a man so unabashedly shameless and weaboo that even weirdos that buy anime pillows can safely state that while they might not have standards, atleast they're not Brian Ashcraft.

(I lost track of what i was talking about because the name kotaku made me want to cry)

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04-15-2014, 01:21 AM (This post was last modified: 04-15-2014 01:23 AM by THEND.)
Post: #21
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
nakedraiden.gif

(04-14-2014 01:39 PM)Fight the Future Wrote:  Yeah Japan isn't the wacky toyland people think, and despite being outside the influence of Western guilt culture and monotheism; it's still a very strict and serious place from what I can gather - women are there for marrying before they get past 25 etc. They have tried to appeal to wider audiences, after all they know how to sell bishonen archetypes; look at "Kaz". But I think complex writing and characterisation is beyond anything Konami will ever release. Characters like Sniper Wolf and The Boss are the closest things to strong female characters I can think of and there are still obvious problems.

Don't mean to double-post because there's an irony in this.

In Japan..you probably see more female heroes in fantasy than in any other country and not all of it is intended to tantalize (though I'd say 99.9% is)....

What's ur take
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04-15-2014, 06:02 AM (This post was last modified: 04-15-2014 06:25 AM by Nike Schneider.)
Post: #22
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]



Japan is either made to look backwards or made to look like some courageous soldier in some bullshit culture war. This is then led to people either defending everything about it 100% or push for a cultural cold war mentality that only benefits western businessmen.

Seriously though, most of the industry criticism of Japan is usually found to be hypocritical or easy cheap points. Phil Fish talks a big game about his "feminism." Yeah, there should be more female protagonists Phil. Good one. Why was Gomez a dude? Remember that one guy who called Quiet's character design "disgusting?" The same guy who did character design for this game?

[Image: oxm_h4_cortana_big_0.jpg]

Bet'cha anything Kojima Productions hires a good amount of women compared to its western counterparts. Statistically speaking, women in the workplace in Japan are growing. Wait a decade and they'll be running companies. I doubt we'll see a woman head a team like Naughty Dog in the west anytime soon. But oh yeah, prepare to have the white liberal arts degree dude running it have a lot to say about oppressive Japan while doing little to promote actual living women in actual industry roles.

You know, like how Macklemore acts like he's the only figure in hip hop who doesn't hate on homosexuals. And he has done... what, exactly, for homosexuals in the hip hop community? At least Macklemore isn't bigoted in his criticism though.

(05-22-2016 02:42 PM)Canucklehead Wrote:  The actual hero of Metal Gear is the player for putting up with all of its bullshit over the years.
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04-15-2014, 06:42 AM
Post: #23
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
All good points above.....but the one that particularly caught me was FtF's reference of our "guilt culture". That's something for you all to think about. We're constantly being encouraged to feel ashamed of something, usually something we have, or something we are. It even goes as far as to encourage shame in things you can't help. Dare I say it but it reminds me of the name of a chapter in one of Lewis Black's books, but I won't go into that because we don't want this thread to turn into another one of "those" debates. This is a thread about Kojima's alleged misogyny (and misogyny in videogames and stuff)....not about Gyw's and their supposed metaphysical powers over the world.

(04-15-2014 06:02 AM)Punished Singh Wrote:  Seriously though, most of the industry criticism of Japan is usually found to be hypocritical or easy cheap points. Phil Fish talks a big game about his "feminism." Yeah, there should be more female protagonists Phil. Good one. Why was Gomez a dude? Remember that one guy who called Quiet's character design "disgusting?" The same guy who did character design for this game?

[Image: oxm_h4_cortana_big_0.jpg]
Quiet's disgusting, and Cortana isn't? [sarcasm]Cortana would be equally disgusting then. I mean, look at her. Look at how....how.....proportional she is. Dear GOD. That's fucking sick. Whoever made her is obviously some teenager who just hit puberty and can't control his hormones and needs to take it out by making gratuitously-endowed women. Cortana was just fine in the first Halo game, but nooooo; they had to make her look "hot". That's just sick. Fucking SICK. That SICK FUCK.[/sarcasm]

Actually, I think there's exceptionalism here. Cortana's an AI with a holographic body, whilst Quiet's a human who exposes much of her body. Cortana technically isn't naked since she doesn't wear clothes. Yeah. I don't get it either, but that's my point.

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04-15-2014, 06:45 AM
Post: #24
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
The "exceptionalism" here is that it was made by a western developer and it is okay because of this.

(05-22-2016 02:42 PM)Canucklehead Wrote:  The actual hero of Metal Gear is the player for putting up with all of its bullshit over the years.
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04-15-2014, 07:15 AM
Post: #25
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
(04-15-2014 06:45 AM)Punished Singh Wrote:  The "exceptionalism" here is that it was made by a western developer and it is okay because of this.
Aah, yes. Though, I never heard about anyone complaining about Cortana, and I think the reasons why are similar to the stuff I posted prior (that she's an AI portrayed by holographic avatar, and she's not naked since she doesn't wear clothes.....to clarify, her avatar is such an appearance that clothes aren't a necessity). Then again, Cortana isn't sexualized (except maybe by the fanbase and whatever they might publish on the Internet), and she's not some damsel-in-distress. To her credit, Cortana is actually quite useful, enough to make some wish they had one for themselves.

But back to the issue of exceptionalism....we Westerners have to be careful with our privilege, our privilege being that we're part of the more civilized(?) side of the world. It'll be our own undoing, kind of like how we're criticizing Japan. Apparently we're not just criticizing them for their misogyny, but also for everything else...this is stuff I heard from my friend months back, that the West is bashing Japan and how they make their games. Their games are "too Japanese". Well, perhaps. But, we've forgotten that it was Japan that pulled us all out of the Videogame Crash of '83....specifically Nintendo, but still.

As I said elsewhere, I think the problem is that Japan is just real with what they do and we just can't grasp it. We see it and we all flip out and scream "That's wrong!" and stuff.

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04-15-2014, 08:01 AM (This post was last modified: 04-15-2014 08:04 AM by Smiley.)
Post: #26
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
I actually agree about the Cortana example. I remember thinking how hypocritical it was of the guy to talk about one design when the latest design of Cortana was brought into question.

Although I can see how gamers might argue about taste in design as Cortana is represented as an AI with no actual genitalia and Quiet is a woman who wears revealing clothing for the purpose of eroticism, selling figurines and promoting cosplay.

(Pictured: Kojima's cropped photo of Quiet he tweeted before the full design was released)
[Image: kojima-pic-625x1000.jpg]

[Image: MGS-cosplay-image-849.jpg]

However, let's not kid ourselves. Cortana is also designed to promote cosplay. And the real issue is that the character has been sexualized since her first Halo 1 design. Unlike Quiet, we actually have other versions of Cortana to base her new appearance off.

[Image: 2542638-0820047217-23614.jpg]
[Image: img-cortana_cosplay_02.jpg]

As I said, it's not a blameless matter of Japanese vs. Western culture, but the only way to improve or solve an issue is to admit that one exists and it doesn't hurt to show these examples to developers and ask for some accountability. The Halo guy seems blind and hypocritical to the design of one of his own characters, and to Kojima's defense at least he was being upfront and honest although he might have used a poor use of translated words (the pic said it all though). There are a lot of factors that go into a sexualized character that use such sex appeal to promote eroticism/sales among males and cosplay among females. But does that make it right?

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04-15-2014, 08:18 AM
Post: #27
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
Squareenix has been promoting cosplay of its product since the dawn of time. Probably is taken into account when they design thier FF characters, but since Kojima is being outright about it, all of a sudden it's not okay.

MEN BECOME MUFFINS
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04-15-2014, 08:30 AM (This post was last modified: 04-15-2014 08:33 AM by Smiley.)
Post: #28
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
Promoting cosplay isn't bad. There's some really creative cosplayers out there who like the challenge to detail. But shameless eroticism being used to sell some toys and get girls wearing little as possible when they dress like her might not be the best way to show off your character.

And Quiet might be a great female character in the long run. But you wouldn't know that from the way they've been promoting her which has been sleazy to the say the lease. Aside from her physical appearance along with the CGI renders of her from every angle, what else do we know about this character?

And if Kojima's agenda is promoting cosplay all around then why haven't we gotten full renders of Skullface, Code Talker or any of the other characters?

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04-15-2014, 08:33 AM
Post: #29
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
A whole lot of nothing really. But good point. Not the best strategy on Konamis part.

MEN BECOME MUFFINS
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04-15-2014, 09:19 AM
Post: #30
RE: Is Kojima misogynistic? [spoiler]
(04-15-2014 06:42 AM)Old Gross Wrote:  All good points above.....but the one that particularly caught me was FtF's reference of our "guilt culture". That's something for you all to think about. We're constantly being encouraged to feel ashamed of something, usually something we have, or something we are. It even goes as far as to encourage shame in things you can't help.

Over here the dominant cultural ideal is Catholic shaming; you should feel guilty because you're going to be punished, always. You should feel bad for being human basically. In a culture outside of religious father/child style threats Japan doesn't have that - but at the same time it's a very conservative place, where "keeping face" is more important. So you can do all the sinful things as long as nobody talks about it or makes it public. The way you do things rather than the act itself. So noboody cares about all the hentai and love hotels because they have their place instead of being something to frown upon all of the time. So gaming is developed with people having that mindset, and you get more extreme results.

Suck my fat one you cheap dime store hood
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