Post Reply 
Board screwing up/MGS2: Lost in Translation Hyper Edition
11-25-2017, 05:16 PM
Post: #346
RE: Board screwing up/MGS2: Lost in Translation Hyper Edition
That's really weird. I have no idea why that's there. So like you said, this might be connected to how they were trying to avoid saying Militaires Sans Frontières, because maybe Médecins Sans Frontières had a problem or something. It kind of reminds me of how they stopped putting the Metal Gear theme in the games because I guess it sounded similar to some other piece of music.

Is it "Out of Order" because the place is destroyed? I guess it's saying that this is the Mother Base that's out of order? That's the best I can figure. I wonder why it's written in English. Maybe the Japanese use that phrase in English as well for things? I really have no idea about this.
QUOTE
11-29-2017, 07:30 AM
Post: #347
RE: Board screwing up/MGS2: Lost in Translation Hyper Edition
Considering that the Peace Walker novel apparently uses the name also, the reference to the destruction doesn't seem likely. Like I said, I thought it might have been an awkward way of saying "outside order", as in the current world order, given their stateless nature. And in turn, might be a deliberate reference to "outside heaven/heaven's outside".

Konami do have a tendency to back down from any potential copyright infringements or name misuse, just like the changes to transceiver portraits and boss character names on the old MSX games.

Anyway, might be a good idea to dig up some extracts from the Peace Walker novel, see how they use the name there and shed some more light on it. Or maybe the group is just always referred to as Mother Base in Japanese and nothing else.
QUOTE
11-30-2017, 03:26 PM
Post: #348
RE: Board screwing up/MGS2: Lost in Translation Hyper Edition
Oh yeah, you did say it was in the Peace Walker novelization. You might be right about it being outside the world order, and yeah, the whole Outside of Heaven thing. And really, a Peace Walker novelization? Yeah, what an amazing story that game had. I'll bet that book won a million awards. Bizarre stories can work in games, but Peace Walker as a book, it would seem like the writer was just making things up as they went along with no clue how to properly construct a story.
QUOTE
12-10-2017, 05:56 AM
Post: #349
RE: Board screwing up/MGS2: Lost in Translation Hyper Edition
(11-30-2017 03:26 PM)DarthCaligula Wrote:  Oh yeah, you did say it was in the Peace Walker novelization. You might be right about it being outside the world order, and yeah, the whole Outside of Heaven thing.

Found a book preview for the intro of the Peace Walker novel, which mentions "Out of Order". However, the name appears only in English, with no accompanying kanij/katakana, so I'm not sure how a Japanese reader would comprehend it, if they had no knowledge of English.

https://booklive.jp/bviewer/?cid=255398_...d%2F255398

スネークたちはひそかにその組織 を「Out of Order」と呼ぶこともあった。
(Snake secretly called the organization "Out of Order".)
QUOTE
12-10-2017, 11:10 PM (This post was last modified: 12-10-2017 11:11 PM by DarthCaligula.)
Post: #350
RE: Board screwing up/MGS2: Lost in Translation Hyper Edition
It keeps having some parts in English with no translation, like "CQC--Close Quarters Combat" and "SAS--Special Air Service" with no translation of those exact words next to it. I'm only skimming this stuff, but none of the writing around those parts seem to have a direct translation of those lines. I also find it very interesting that it mentions "GW" in there, with "George Washington" written next to it in katakana, I don't know why, but it also mentions Mt. Rushmore in that sentence with it, and he's of course one of those carved on there.

Looking at that Out of Order line, my attempt at translating it would be: "Snake and the others called their private organization 'Out of Order'."

Did you try translating it yourself, or did you use some translating site? I'm not trying to insult you with this, I'm just curious. To explain why I came up with what I did:

ひそかに

組織


I'm not really sure why these are just written in English. As part of Japanese schooling, English is a requirement, so pretty much every Japanese person is going to learn English in high school at least, and I think starting in middle school generally, and more recently, it's being put into elementary school education as well. I'm really not sure how the typical Japanese person would react to this. They'd probably just use some translating website or app or whatever.

This also reminds me, the question of whether or not the typical Japanese person would be able to read this English, it reminds me of a funny and surprising video I watched a while back where this Japanese guy went around the streets of some Japanese city, quizzing people on kanji. He'd tell them a word and give it the proper context, then he'd have them write it, and it was very surprising how much trouble they had. I was also really surprised that he would even give equivalent words in English to help jog their memory.
QUOTE
12-12-2017, 08:57 AM
Post: #351
RE: Board screwing up/MGS2: Lost in Translation Hyper Edition
(12-10-2017 11:10 PM)DarthCaligula Wrote:  It keeps having some parts in English with no translation, like "CQC--Close Quarters Combat" and "SAS--Special Air Service" with no translation of those exact words next to it. I'm only skimming this stuff, but none of the writing around those parts seem to have a direct translation of those lines. I also find it very interesting that it mentions "GW" in there, with "George Washington" written next to it in katakana, I don't know why, but it also mentions Mt. Rushmore in that sentence with it, and he's of course one of those carved on there.

Looking at that Out of Order line, my attempt at translating it would be: "Snake and the others called their private organization 'Out of Order'."

Did you try translating it yourself, or did you use some translating site? I'm not trying to insult you with this, I'm just curious. To explain why I came up with what I did:

ひそかに

組織

Nah, I didn't translate these myself, I just used Google. Probably not the best way to do it, but it was the only site I knew of where I could manually draw the different characters. Maybe I'll check out that jisho.org in future to see how it compares. "Private organization" does make more sense in this context.

Like yourself, I've been interested in finding out the intended meaning behind some of the writing in the original Japanese, to get a better sense of what is being communicated storywise, which doesn't always come across well in English. So thanks for helping me out on this!
QUOTE
12-12-2017, 10:08 AM (This post was last modified: 12-12-2017 10:10 AM by jdnation.)
Post: #352
RE: Board screwing up/MGS2: Lost in Translation Hyper Edition
Throwing my 2 cents in here...

But there is likely no difference in meaning between 'Heaven' and 'Order.'

Heaven is representative of the ultimate harmony and absolute order of the world.

Given that words used in Japanese can have multiple meanings and must be understood in context.
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/the/ja...a535b.html

Japanese words for heaven
上天
Jōten
上界
Jōkai
九天
Kyūten
大空
Ōzora

Ten
天上界
Tenjō-kai
天の原
Amanohara
天国
Tengoku
天堂
Tendō
天道
Tendō
常世の国
Tokoyonokuni

Tendo in particular means - chance, destiny, divine guidance, divine intervention, divine justice, fate, fortune, heaven, lot, predetermination, providence, Sun, way of heaven, chances

It could be a case where the Japanese writer in wishing to appropriate English, chose the word 'Order' to emphasize how Big Boss viewed his organization and it being outside the 'Heaven' or 'Absolute political Order' of Zero's.

We could just be looking at a sloppy usage of English that might confuse an every-day English speaker, but that understood by the Japanese could take the world 'Order' to be synonymous to 'Heaven.'

Essentially, Snake and co. are outside of Zero's control. They both have conflicting views of paradise and world peace.

So 'Heaven' in MGS is more of a political/social order, then theological.
QUOTE
12-13-2017, 11:55 PM
Post: #353
RE: Board screwing up/MGS2: Lost in Translation Hyper Edition
I've actually started thinking that the reason why we see some different versions of Outer Heaven's meaning with it translated into Japanese is that each time it's supposed to represent what this version means. It seems that it's only done in MGS4, Peace Walker, and MGS5. So in MGS4, you could say that it's saying that Liquid Ocelot's version is a place that's abandoned heaven, while to Big Boss in Peace Walker, it's a place that's outside of heaven. I still have a strong feeling that Outer Heaven's original name was a mistake in translation, that Kojima intended for it to be Out of Heaven or Outside of Heaven, but he and whoever he might have worked this out with made a mistake and came up with Outer Heaven.

Or maybe it was a mistake on our end, and it was supposed to be Outta Heaven, like "Get outta heaven!" That must be it!

That was a joke, by the way. Please don't think I'm seriously trying to interpret it that way, because that would really stupid.

All this talk about English text being used in Japanese writing reminds me of how I've actually seen this already in the books I translate. In the first one I worked on, Boogiepop Overdrive, on page 95 there's some English text. I remember when I first got it, just skimming through some of it to see what I could understand, how I came across this line and thought it was pretty weird, "WARNING INSTUMENTALITY OF MANKIND". It was really weird to see this English in the middle of the page, especially as a huge fan of Neon Genesis Evangelion, which has the Human Instrumentality Project as a major part of the story, not that I have any clue if that show inspired this in any way.
What's going on is that there's a character hacking some database on his laptop, then the screen freezes with that message. I have no idea what it's about, and it's so weird that it would have a word like "instrumentality". So this is another example of English being thrown in, and with no translation at all. I wondered at the time if the typical Japanese teen would understand that, and I still really don't know.
QUOTE
12-27-2017, 03:02 PM (This post was last modified: 12-27-2017 03:03 PM by DarthCaligula.)
Post: #354
RE: Board screwing up/MGS2: Lost in Translation Hyper Edition
I don't have any desire to play through the first Metal Gear again, but since I have these videos, I can finally look at something. That's right, the most famous and important line Big Boss has ever said:

"YEAH, I'M BIG BOSS."

What does he actually say? Well, now it's time to find out.




At 3:36. So the thing is, to check on this and make sure that I was getting this straight, it actually took me a long time to find the official translation on YouTube, so I kept finding what I assume are fan translations that are written differently. Anyway, I'll get to it.

"アウターヘブンのボス
ビッグボスだ!!"

So pretty much it would be translated as:

"Outer Heaven's boss, Big Boss!!"

Now, something I have to point out is that he says "Big Boss da!!" The "da" there is part of Japanese grammar. It's a casual form of "desu", which is hard to translate, but pretty much means "it is". There are several ways to end sentences in Japanese depending on if you're talking about an action being taken, animate beings, inanimate objects, plainly stating things and um... I think I got it all. Within that, there are also polite and casual forms, as well as past tense, present tense, and sort of future tense, what you're planning to do kind of. So with all these different combinations, there are different forms of how the sentence ends, and this is the biggest problem I have with speaking Japanese and putting my thoughts into words, it's all so confusing to me and I always seem to get it wrong.

Anyway, so more literally, he says "It's Big Boss!!" The other translations wrote it as "I'm the commander of Fox Hound and boss of Outer Heaven, Big Boss!!" which is a much better translation. Why did the official translation have Big Boss put it in such a stupid way? I mean, that fan translation is far more accurate to how he actually says it in the game and is way more comfortable to say!

I guess I should point out that the actual full line he says in the official translation is:

"Yeah, I'm Big Boss
General Commandant of Fox Hound.
And in charge of this fortress, Outer Heaven."

Compare this to the other translation I found:

"I'm the commander of Fox Hound and boss of Outer Heaven
Big Boss!!"

My attempt at translating this:

"I am FOXHOUND's commander, and also,
the boss of this stronghold, Big Boss!!"

So while it's fun to make jokes about that line, this is more the result of a stupid translation than anything else, because it's actually worded fine in Japanese, as well as in fan translations.

YEAH, I'M BIG BOSS
QUOTE
01-05-2018, 08:57 AM (This post was last modified: 01-05-2018 03:33 PM by Luck Be Ro.)
Post: #355
RE: Board screwing up/MGS2: Lost in Translation Hyper Edition
(12-27-2017 03:02 PM)DarthCaligula Wrote:  Anyway, so more literally, he says "It's Big Boss!!" The other translations wrote it as "I'm the commander of Fox Hound and boss of Outer Heaven, Big Boss!!" which is a much better translation. Why did the official translation have Big Boss put it in such a stupid way? I mean, that fan translation is far more accurate to how he actually says it in the game and is way more comfortable to say!

I guess I should point out that the actual full line he says in the official translation is:

"Yeah, I'm Big Boss
General Commandant of Fox Hound.
And in charge of this fortress, Outer Heaven."

Compare this to the other translation I found:

"I'm the commander of Fox Hound and boss of Outer Heaven
Big Boss!!"

My attempt at translating this:

"I am FOXHOUND's commander, and also,
the boss of this stronghold, Big Boss!!"

So while it's fun to make jokes about that line, this is more the result of a stupid translation than anything else, because it's actually worded fine in Japanese, as well as in fan translations.

I think the official translation is now the updated script featured in the re-released MSX games, which were included in MGS3: Subsistence.

The new line is:
"...I am the supreme commander of the FOXHOUND unit... And...
The leader of the fortress of Outer Heaven, Big Boss!"

I wasn't sure whether you looked at those versions, or deliberately avoided them for this project. Anyway, I believe they could help with the more difficult translations that you encountered in some of your earlier posts.
QUOTE
01-05-2018, 01:10 PM
Post: #356
RE: Board screwing up/MGS2: Lost in Translation Hyper Edition
I got confused with all the different versions I found, and assumed that those that didn't say "Yeah, I'm Big Boss" were fan translations. Thanks for clearing it up. So where does the "Yeah, I'm Big Boss" line come from exactly?
QUOTE
01-05-2018, 03:33 PM (This post was last modified: 01-05-2018 03:34 PM by Luck Be Ro.)
Post: #357
RE: Board screwing up/MGS2: Lost in Translation Hyper Edition
(01-05-2018 01:10 PM)DarthCaligula Wrote:  I got confused with all the different versions I found, and assumed that those that didn't say "Yeah, I'm Big Boss" were fan translations. Thanks for clearing it up. So where does the "Yeah, I'm Big Boss" line come from exactly?

The "Yeah, I'm Big Boss" line actually comes from the UK release of the MSX2 game (1987).
https://www.gamefaqs.com/msx/578853-meta...faqs/30618

Interestingly, the NES port (1988) has a better, if not perfect, translation:
"Yes, it's true. Not only am I the Fox Hounder [sic] supreme commander, Big Boss, but
I've been the leader of the enemy fortress, too!"
https://www.gamefaqs.com/nes/587449-meta...faqs/38049
QUOTE
01-05-2018, 03:45 PM
Post: #358
RE: Board screwing up/MGS2: Lost in Translation Hyper Edition
OK, so it looks like I screwed up again. It's like my Ronald McDonald Miller post. Well, at least I got into what exactly Big Boss said there.
QUOTE
01-05-2018, 04:17 PM
Post: #359
RE: Board screwing up/MGS2: Lost in Translation Hyper Edition
(01-05-2018 03:45 PM)DarthCaligula Wrote:  OK, so it looks like I screwed up again. It's like my Ronald McDonald Miller post. Well, at least I got into what exactly Big Boss said there.

No problem. I had forgotten about the English language MSX2 release, so thanks for bringing it to my attention. The infamous NES port translation seems to be more renowned, though the MSX2 one seems just as bad.

Regarding the whole "McDonell/McDonnel/MacDonel/McDonnell" spelling nightmare, I'm reminded of Dr. PetTrovich's name, which should really be "Petrovich" ("son of Petro/Peter").
QUOTE
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)