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Board screwing up/MGS2: Lost in Translation Hyper Edition
11-18-2015, 04:44 PM
Post: #16
RE: Board screwing up/MGS2: Lost in Translation Hyper Edition
Yeah the Japanese are not very good at specifics, but they sure as hell are good at muscle memory
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11-19-2015, 11:29 PM (This post was last modified: 11-19-2015 11:35 PM by DarthCaligula.)
Post: #17
RE: Board screwing up/MGS2: Lost in Translation Hyper Edition
Part 6: Arsenal Gear to Federal Hall

I have to say, despite my complaints about Quinton Flynn, I thought he did a good job with the part when Raiden talks about his past as a child soldier. If only he put as much effort into the rest of the performance.

"He's a non-existent operative, from a non-existent organization."
In Japanese, he pretty much says the same, but something interesting is that in English, that is, Roman lettering, over the equivalent kanji, it says "No such agent" and "No such agency".
I can't remember how it is in English, but in Japanese Solidus actually says that the war Raiden fought in was in the 1980's. Does anyone remember if he mentioned that it was the 80's in the English version?
When GW starts screwing up and talking weird, there's still the sound of interference, but there's actually a part when his voice goes higher too, and there's more of this sort of thing in his crazy calls to Raiden. Like when he starts saying the names of what I believe are a bunch of train stops, he talks faster and faster, with his voice going higher and higher. The calls from the first Metal Gear are kind of interesting. The subtitles say "OUTER HEAVEN" and "BIG BOSS" in English like that, and the rest of what he says in Japanese is in katakana, seeming to suggest that he's straining the sound, which of course he is doing. "Metal Gear" is written in katakana though, not English.
When Rose calls Raiden and starts screwing up (which as far as I'm concerned, is the evidence that she's been an AI the whole time), it's pretty much the same, though I think the effect worked out a bit better in the Japanese version, with her voice getting deeper and deeper as she talks about her belly and Raiden's baby, and her voice getting more and more distorted. Like I said though, it's not that big of a difference.

"Believe in what?"
"That's your problem."
I believe that this is what Raiden and Snake say in English. In Japanese, Snake says something more like "That's for you to answer."
I have to say, the part when Raiden fights the Rays in what is a recreation of the part in the VR Missions game's voyeuristic section that lets you look at Naomi and Mei Ling is the strongest evidence for the VR Theory. When I looked at this area in The Document of Metal Gear Solid 2, and also really got to look at Arsenal Gear, I really noticed how the area Raiden fights the Rays in is impossibly big. There's no way this area could fit inside of or on top of Arsenal Gear. And the reason why this is really important is that every strut you go in on the Big Shell is actually around the same size, and an appropriate size to actually fit inside those struts. But like I said before, I'm not going to be pushing for or against the VR Theory with this, especially since I'm really on the fence for whether or not I believe it.

"Solid Snake Simulation" is said in English, with the English words appearing over kanji.
Solidus is mocking Raiden the whole time he's talking about Raiden's past, and when Olga appears, he's mocking her as well. What I mean is that he's really mocking them, more than how he sounds in English.
I love the part when Ocelot stabs everyone in the back. He's just he ultimate bastard, and I actually think I like how Patrick Zimmerman does it more than Koji Totani. Not that Totani does a bad job at all, but Zimmerman just sounds like such a dick through the whole thing, like he's really enjoying it. In Japanese, you get the same feeling, but I just like how Zimmerman did it more.
Also, they're still calling the Patriots "Those who love their county", so it's pretty clear that "Patriots" is a translation of that. I kept wondering if Ocelot would say the name in English, but that's not the case.
For those of you who don't know, there was originally planned a part where we'd see Arsenal Gear actually smash through Manhattan, but it was cut because of 9/11. In The Document of Metal Gear Solid 2, we actually get to look at a polygonal model of this, showing the city trashed, making it really sink in just how many people must have died from this.
Solidus at this point speaks with a lot of passion when talking about his ideals. It's clear that he really believes in stopping the Patriots. His voice even seems to start cracking with the emotion.
The Document of Metal Gear Solid 2 states that the "Campbell" AI that Raiden talks to at this point is called "JFK". GW is named after George Washington, while JFK is of course named after John Fitzgerald Kennedy.
There's something pretty interesting about JFK and Rose here that was lost in English. Whenever it switches between them, we hear the other AI speaking before their face appears. What I mean is that, for example, it'll show JFK's Campbell skull face talking, and once he's done talking, we hear Rose start talking and about a second later the picture switches to Rose, and it goes back and forth like this throughout the whole thing. It makes me wonder if these are supposed to both be the same AI, switching which person it's talking as. I've never been sure if they are two separate AIs or if it was just one, JFK, switching between Campbell and Rose to screw with Raiden's head. I've also got my own theory about just what the Patriots are supposed to be within the context of MGS2, but that doesn't really belong here.
"Selection for Society Sanity" is said in English as well, above kanji that would be the equivalent idea in Japanese.

"You have to beLIEve me!"
Unfortunately, I missed this part. I've always wondered if there's some pun with "uso", which is the Japanese word for a lie or falsehood. Maybe I'll go through this part again and really pay attention later.
Solidus calls himself and Raiden monsters, and says "monster" in English, with "monster" in katakana appearing above kanji.

I stopped here because up next is the end of the game, and I really want to pay attention to this part.
I'm almost to the end now. I was really hoping that Ravi and Mr. Wolfe would have joined in with this and maybe asked some questions, but I guess not. After I beat this game I should finally finish GTA5, and I'll want to play Fallout 4, but Metal Gear Solid in Japanese is pretty tempting too. I'll probably play MGS3 in Japanese eventually as well, and I guess there's no reason not to play MGS4, even if it's not that good. I'm really curious if Screaming Mantis actually screams in the fight with her like Rose is talking about when you call her.
Again, if anyone wants me to go back and check any previous part, feel free to ask. I'll also do my best to mention all that stuff from the old topic before it disappeared. Maybe I should play through the stuff up to that point again just to catch it all again.
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11-20-2015, 06:20 AM
Post: #18
RE: Board screwing up/MGS2: Lost in Translation Hyper Edition
Solidus: "The '80s...a civil war."

Yes, he does specify the year.

CANUCKLEHEAD
He's just a prick

I just saved 100% on stress by switching to Not Giving A Fuck
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11-20-2015, 04:14 PM
Post: #19
RE: Board screwing up/MGS2: Lost in Translation Hyper Edition
But what about the crotch grabbing in Japanese

Suck my fat one you cheap dime store hood
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11-20-2015, 05:41 PM
Post: #20
RE: Board screwing up/MGS2: Lost in Translation Hyper Edition
They changed it from Tentacles in the Japanese version to hands in the North American and other regional releases.

CANUCKLEHEAD
He's just a prick

I just saved 100% on stress by switching to Not Giving A Fuck
QUOTE
11-20-2015, 07:43 PM
Post: #21
RE: Board screwing up/MGS2: Lost in Translation Hyper Edition
I'm not sure if this is a joke or not, but it's the same in Japanese of course. Like I said, the translated script is good, it's the voice acting that has issues. As for why he does it, I'm pretty sure that Johnson is supposed to have mistaken Raiden for the ninja. Something I forgot to point out when I was talking about Raiden's character design is that his outfit is also based on the stereotypical ninja outfit (which I'm not too sure about the accuracy of), with the feet being a big giveaway. It seems that Johnson is aware of a female ninja of some kind that works for the Patriots and mistakes Raiden for her, so because Raiden is all confused about what Johnson is talking about, Johnson just decides to get it over with and grabs Raiden's crotch to see if this is a man or woman. When he sees that Raiden is a man, he realizes that Raiden isn't the female ninja. Of course, in Japanese Raiden has a deep voice (I really can't stress this enough, Flynn and Horiuchi sound nothing alike), but maybe he just thinks that this is a woman intentionally masking her voice. If you're wondering about something that Johnson says, I could check if you really want.
By the way, The Document of Metal Gear Solid 2 says something interesting about this point. I can't remember the exact wording, but it says that Johnson choosing to die, knowing he's going to further the Patriots' plans is supposed to foreshadow what happens with Raiden later. I think what it means is that at the end of the game, Raiden knows that by killing Solidus, that he's just going to be helping the Patriots by finishing their Selection for Societal Sanity, which will help them control society. In the same way, you the player by choosing to continue playing the game and going along with this predetermined path of killing Solidus are also in a way choosing to let the Patriots win a victory.
You know, I just have to say that I've always wondered if anything would happen if I turned the game off when GW is going crazy and tells you so. I mean, I know that nothing would really happen, but still, I've never done it and I just wonder. It's kind of like you can choose right there to not let the Patriots win. And yeah, I know that Big Boss says the same thing in Metal Gear. "UH OH SNAKE! THE MISSION'S A FAILURE! TURN OFF YOUR MSX!!!!!! TRUST ME DUDE!"
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11-21-2015, 11:22 AM
Post: #22
RE: Board screwing up/MGS2: Lost in Translation Hyper Edition
Wow, I knew Johnson initially mistook Raiden for a woman, but it never occured to me that he might have though Raiden was the cyborg ninja, and thus knew about Olga, until I saw you type it out. That whole tangent of the Ninja appearing for one brief scene for literally no reason whatsoever and then being Olga for even less sense just kinda kinda seemed to be there for the sake of it, but now it makes a lot more sense.

There's so much that's actually going on in the background of MGS2's plot, and all we get is shitty Raiden's story. I want to see everything else that's happening, and it just so happens that Snake seems to experience all the good stuff. Fuck, they should have pulled a Resident Evil and had Snake's perspective playable after beating the game, because he definitely had a better game than Raiden did. Fuck, he even has boss fights!

CANUCKLEHEAD
He's just a prick

I just saved 100% on stress by switching to Not Giving A Fuck
QUOTE
11-21-2015, 07:50 PM (This post was last modified: 11-21-2015 07:51 PM by DarthCaligula.)
Post: #23
RE: Board screwing up/MGS2: Lost in Translation Hyper Edition
Personally, I think Raiden has the more interesting story in that game, since he, like us, is totally confused and has no clue what the hell is going on. The only boss fights that Snake has that we really know about are cyborg ninja Olga and that part when he loses to Fortune. Though it would have been interesting to see Snake's point of view after you beat the game like you said, it really seemed that Kojima only wanted us to see Raiden's point of view. Even after seeing both sides of the argument after all these years, I'm still not sure how I feel on the subject.
Well there you go! Now we can have a Twin Snakes style remake from Solid Snake's view with pointless backflips and then we can also needlessly bring in characters from the other games, like Amanda and Cecile for no goddamn reason! Konami can run wild!
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11-21-2015, 08:07 PM
Post: #24
RE: Board screwing up/MGS2: Lost in Translation Hyper Edition
Only if there's base-building too!

CANUCKLEHEAD
He's just a prick

I just saved 100% on stress by switching to Not Giving A Fuck
QUOTE
11-21-2015, 09:17 PM
Post: #25
RE: Board screwing up/MGS2: Lost in Translation Hyper Edition
Part 7: Can't Say Goodbye to Yesterday

The fight with Solidus is the same of course, but I think that part of the idea was that we were supposed to be fighting someone who looks and sounds just like Solid Snake. I don't know if this was supposed to be some sort of symbolic killing of Snake and of the Metal Gear series or if it was just supposed to be something on our minds as we fought, killing a guy who sounds just like the hero we used to play as.
When JFK calls during the fight, talking about Rex and Ray, the Japanese fighter craft, his voice is high pitched, which it was not like during the part just before when he's explaining everything to Raiden. Rose sounds normal though.
Something that you might not be aware of is that before the changes resulting from 9/11 (which remember only happened about two months before this game was released) there was going to be a US flag actually on the flag pole of Federal Hall. We would have seen this during the fight, probably blowing in the wind, and it's even more important in the scenes with Solidus talking about his ideals and when he dies. Watch the death scene again and you'll notice that he camera keeps showing the flag pole, with lots of screen area dedicated to it, also, when Solidus falls, he looks up at the flag and reaches his hand out towards it. There's another thing at this part that's really easy to miss, and that I had no idea about for years, until I was messing around with the Casting Theater or whatever it's called on MGS2 Substance. Solidus says something as he looks up at the flag. It's hard to see because his face guard blocks his mouth, but if you use the Casting Theater you can put someone else, like Rose for example, in there and clearly see the mouth moving. Who knows what he's saying though.
When Solidus is dying next to the statue of George Washington, he's still looking up at the flag, and when Raiden swipes his sword down, he was originally cutting the rope, causing the flag to fall on Solidus. I'm not sure if this means that Raiden is rejecting his country or maybe it's because Solidus is a former president and I'm pretty sure that the flag is put on the coffin of presidents. Maybe Raiden is showing some small respect to Solidus, or maybe he's doing it more ironically.
Before I continue, there's another little thing that I kept forgetting to notice before, but I noticed this time, and it's some more stuff about the Japanese language. There are different pronouns in Japanese, and what pronoun a person uses depends on sex, age, or just how they view themselves. Mostly I'm talking about Solid and Solidus Snake here though. Solid Snake says "ore", which from my understanding is a somewhat rude, or at least, not exactly polite word to use. It's not like swearing or anything, but I think it means that you're appearing kind of rough. It's very masculine. Solidus says "watashi", which is a very general one, and I think more commonly used by women (there's a much more effeminate version of this though, "atashi", which only women would use, and maybe some effeminate men), though it's really genderless. Raiden I think says "boku", which is masculine and used by younger men, like children, teens, and maybe like in Raiden's case, men in their 20's. I can't believe I didn't catch what Raiden says. Well, it's not like it's hard to check later, since he's the main character.
This part as well is also some pretty strong evidence for the VR Theory I have to say. People moving slow around Raiden, all blurry, and the biggest one for me is the fact that Solid Snake, who we last saw jump off of Arsenal Gear into the ocean has somehow in this little time swam to the coast of Manhattan and made his way to Federal Hall.

"Dog tags?"
Mr. Wolfe liked to tear Flynn apart about this line. It's kind of hard for me to say for sure, but Mr. Wolfe hears it more as "Dog tags...", instead of a question. I heard the line over and over in his video, and I'm not sure if Flynn is saying it as a statement or a question. Horiuchi absolutely says it as a question though.
Now I absolutely believe that Rose is supposed to be an AI all the way through the game up to this point, but now I'm starting to believe the VR Theory even more because of how Kikuno Inoue says Rose's lines, as opposed to Lara Cody's performance. I get the impression much more that she's continuing conversation topics that she and Raiden discussed, and even more, when she talks about the baby. Before I assumed that Rose had just gone to work in her usual work uniform and that she had no clue that Raiden had been sent to the Big Shell, and that after Arsenal Gear smashed into Manhattan, she came out to see, and found Raiden there, and from the way he acted, she figured that he must have found out the truth.
But now, I'm not so sure. I really get the impression that this is the same woman, but that doesn't make sense because the last time we see Rose act normal is when she calls him and tells him about how she's lied to him, and then her voice goes all weird, and even more important, her eyes go white, like they do at times when what is clearly an AI looking like Rose is talking to Raiden after Arsenal Gear smashes into Federal Hall. This all really does seem to suggest that Raiden is impossibly talking to the same woman, and so that would mean that he's in a VR simulation and embracing this illusion.
While I'm on the subject of the game's ending, I think it's also important to bring up the book City of Glass, by Paul Auster, which was at the very least one of the inspirations for this game. Warning, I'm going to be giving huge spoilers for that book here. I guess you could skip the next paragraph if you don't want to know.
So the thing is that City of Glass is a mystery book, but at the end of the book, no mysteries in the book have actually been answered. You're just left there, with nothing. So if you read through it again, trying to see if there were clues, you start to notice how things don't really seem to add up to what is apparently supposed to be going on in the book. How Peter and Virginia Stillman's story seems to have some holes in it, and how they really start looking suspicious. I really think that MGS2 is similar. The game ends with all sorts of mysteries, like Vamp, and we don't have any answers. Who the hell are the Patriots for example? So maybe, like City of Glass, we were supposed to play through the game again, and notice how things aren't adding up, and this would lead us to believe that maybe nothing is actually real in it, maybe it is all just VR.
OK, OK, I said I wouldn't get into my own theories when I started this, that I'd just focus on the translation, so I'll move on.

Really though, this is it. The ending of the game is the same. With my skill at Japanese, I can tell that everyone says pretty much the same stuff. The credits are all in Japanese of course, except for foreign names in English, and it says in Japanese "Solid Snake/Solidus Otsuka Akio" of course since they were played by the same guy, but there's really not much else to say. Still, if anyone has any questions, go ahead and ask. If you want me to check something from somewhere in the game, go ahead and I'll do my best. This is the end of the game, Kojima's final word on Metal Gear, his final message within the series, so it definitely deserves attention, but in all truth, I unfortunately didn't catch any major differences here like I was hoping for. I was really hoping that there would be something the equivalent of Mr. X's voice changing as Olga played recordings as she went along her script, but there's nothing like that here as far as I can tell.
I hope you all enjoyed this, and I plan on going back to those first parts that were lost when the first version of this topic disappeared so that anyone late to this will get the full story.
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11-22-2015, 05:10 AM
Post: #26
RE: Board screwing up/MGS2: Lost in Translation Hyper Edition
Do they have much difference in the R2/L2 codec thoughts?

Suck my fat one you cheap dime store hood
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11-25-2015, 02:11 PM
Post: #27
RE: Board screwing up/MGS2: Lost in Translation Hyper Edition
That's something I always forget about being in the game. I tried it out and when I push R1, he seems to say something positive, while if I push R2 he says something negative, and it seems that the harder I push the button, the madder he gets. That's pretty much how it is in the English version too, right?
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11-26-2015, 04:04 PM (This post was last modified: 11-26-2015 04:10 PM by Victor Katilis.)
Post: #28
RE: Board screwing up/MGS2: Lost in Translation Hyper Edition
Yes. English version is the same.
Quote:Something that you might not be aware of is that before the changes resulting from 9/11 (which remember only happened about two months before this game was released) there was going to be a US flag actually on the flag pole of Federal Hall. We would have seen this during the fight, probably blowing in the wind, and it's even more important in the scenes with Solidus talking about his ideals and when he dies. Watch the death scene again and you'll notice that he camera keeps showing the flag pole, with lots of screen area dedicated to it, also, when Solidus falls, he looks up at the flag and reaches his hand out towards it.
I covered it some time ago.
It really pisses me off whenever I am at the end of the playthrough.

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11-27-2015, 07:48 PM (This post was last modified: 11-27-2015 08:01 PM by DarthCaligula.)
Post: #29
RE: Board screwing up/MGS2: Lost in Translation Hyper Edition
Yeah, I know that some of this has been said before, but I'm just pointing all this stuff out while I'm at it.
There's another thing about Rose I forgot to mention that's pretty interesting. Have any of you ever looked at Rose's name card? It's hard to make out in the game, but you can get a good look at it in The Document of Metal Gear Solid 2. I don't remember all of it exactly (and I'm too lazy to hook up my PS2 right now), but I know that it says her name as "Rose Mary" and what's really interesting is that below it is the number of polygons that make up her model, and I think the name of her texture file. Now, I'm not saying that this means anything, it could just be some more of Kojima and his team's sense of humor. After all, it would be hard as hell to notice this in the game, since the only time you get to see it is when she's in the street. I also seem to remember it being in surprisingly high detail.

There's something I need to ask about the Metal Gear Solid Legacy Collection. Do any of you own it? I was really disappointed that Metal Gear Solid itself isn't on either of the disks themselves, but instead it gives you a code to download it. I looked around online and apparently I need to put Metal Gear Solid in my cart at the Sony online store that you get to on the PS3, and then use the code. The thing is, I don't know if this will make me get the Japanese version or the English version. Unless things work out perfectly, it looks like I might not be able to get the Japanese version of the game. I don't know why the hell they did this, and it pisses me off really. I was really looking forward to playing Metal Gear Solid in Japanese and maybe doing the same sort of thing here.
I bought the game off Ebay and it was completely sealed, so it's most likely the code should still work. I'm just worried that I'm going to only be able to get the English version, and I have no idea how to find out if there's a way to get the Japanese version. Maybe my only hope would be to buy an old PS1 copy of the game.

Oh yeah, I've actually been rewriting parts one and two of my Lost in Translation thing. I'm also going to be putting all that stuff about Japanese subtleties that were lost and just plain hard to translate in the beginning, though hopefully I won't bore everyone to death with that. I really should get on it and actually just write it out. I'm planning on editing the post I have here with part 3, putting all of the other stuff before that point, so that anyone who hasn't read this that might come along will get the full story.
In all truth though, this feels like a project that I would never feel is complete. It seems like I might just add more and more to this endlessly the more I play through the game (though I haven't played it since I beat it).
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11-27-2015, 08:50 PM (This post was last modified: 11-27-2015 08:53 PM by Tempunaut.)
Post: #30
RE: Board screwing up/MGS2: Lost in Translation Hyper Edition
I don't know if psn download codes even work in different regions. Like, the Japanese code that you got might not even work on the US store.

Anyway, if you wanna be 100% sure to get the right version, you should just make a Japanese account and download it from the Japanese store.

I actually got it a few months ago when it was priced down to 500 yen during a MGSV promotion. I don't speak Japanese so I can't say to much about the voice acting other than they all sound very good. Lot's of voices from anime I used to watch when I was younger. Which is why I was curious about it in the first place.

Only bad thing about the jp version is that it has only one difficulty setting, which seems to be easy.
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