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Big Boss and Nation-building
02-01-2016, 02:06 PM
Post: #1
Big Boss and Nation-building
Aside from the obvious themes of MGSV.

I suspect that Kojima saved the story of Big Boss building a nation for a more obvious reason.

He had to follow up MGSV with MGSVI.

Despite saying this was his final Metal Gear and yadda yadda, he was essentially saving an excuse for a potential follow-up.

Konami would've have him at least produce another Metal Gear (assuming the fall-out didn't happen), and Kojima had long accepted that in some way he'd always be involved with the franchise, only hoping to escape to Silent Hill or something for awhile.

For good or ill, the Big Boss saga now has what may be seen as a 'necessary' element of collecting more soldiers and ballooning up another base.

So how does one follow V when inevitably 'V' comes and he's brought 'I' with him too?

The mechanic started in Peace Walker.

And the excuse to do it all over again was destroying MSF to build Diamond Dogs in V.

It's doubtful that Kojima would want to destroy Diamond Dogs again and repeat that plot device...

So the only way to up the scale of the game and keep the recruitment mechanic is to have the real Big Boss be the next focus of VI and instead of some offshore plant, build an actual country of sorts.

This is probably what I also suspect would've been a more modular Metal Gear game where instead I can see Kojima putting out a more episodic approach where we get a whole series of games...

Kind of like how Ground Zeroes and The Phantom Pain make up 'V'

But instead think of for example what Square Enix does with:

Final Fantasy X, X-2
Final Fantasy XIII, XIII-2, Lightning Returns

Or how they're approaching the Final Fantasy VII REMAKE using several installments.

In this vein I'd also say the move away from story towards game play was more deliberate.

For all we know Metal Gear onwards would've dropped the numerical scheme altogether for a subtitle that may have also worked as a service.

Not precisely an MMO, but with more of an online world.

There may be a base game, but after that we'd get expansion packs as DLC, or expanded story chapters on disc.

Think of the Chapters 1,2, and the missing 3 of V.

But instead Kojima would've sold us 4, 5 & 6 separately, perhaps using the same $40 GZ model.

Each game may introduce new modular expansions to our nation base, a new buddy and a story focusing on said buddy. Perhaps even giving us what we'd have expected as seeing Big Boss recruit the members of Foxhound and others.

There would also be plenty of stories to tell about the Legend of Big Boss. And there'd be other writers etc.

The TV series approach and the credits that we complain about at the start of every mission would see Kojima's name disappear and be replaced by other contributors and staff. Kind of like how TV series have multiple writers coming in and doing unique episodes. That's not to say Kojima wouldn't return for some more short stories and to steer the overall project, but I believe this was a direction Kojima and Konami were interested in going, and that a lot of what we see in MGSV were testing ground for those ideas.

Kojima might've also brought in other collaborators - Del Toro, Winding Refn, George Miller, JJ Abrams etc. to do some short stories and basic scenarios that his team could've quickly put together using FOX tools and put out as DLC.

Given the scope would need to expand to accommodate all this and it'd be another long-in-development idea that would take the lessons from MGSV to heart, such a project may have been in the works simultaneously as Kojima worked on other stuff like Silent Hill. It probably would've been something aimed towards the end of the PS4's lifecycle, or the beginning of PS5, or cross-gen.

This could've been very cool. But well, maybe I'm just speculatively fiddling in the wind... Fiddle

But I definitely feel the Big Boss Nation arc was something held in reserve for more potential Metal Gear, and an excuse to continue on the fulton/recruitment mechanic.
02-09-2016, 12:55 AM
Post: #2
RE: Big Boss and Nation-building
I honestly would rather have that than have the series just die on V
And I actually agree with what you say too about how he was saving the real BB for another game because i dont see why Venom was even a necessary thing. Im pretty sure most people just assumed "video game logic" when it came to big boss suriviving outer heaven (same way bowser comes back after his lava baths) so it wasnt exactly a plot hole that needed patching

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02-09-2016, 05:27 AM
Post: #3
RE: Big Boss and Nation-building
The aquisition of troops directly conflicts with the stealth concepts of the series and since it was all pointless in Peace Walker, it was pure annoyance in Phantom Pain.

If there ever were an MGSix (fuck off with VI; Phantom Pain only used a romanumeral for Venom), it'd have to remove all that shit and focus on the plot regarding Snake and Big Boss coming together; as gar as I'm concerned, Outer Heaven was built in Peace Walker and the destruction and rebuilding was pointless and shall be disregarded, as well as the obvious issue of it being a shitty oil platform rather than two buildings in the African desert.

He's just a prick

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02-10-2016, 11:03 AM
Post: #4
RE: Big Boss and Nation-building
(02-09-2016 05:27 AM)Canucklehead Wrote:  The aquisition of troops directly conflicts with the stealth concepts of the series and since it was all pointless in Peace Walker, it was pure annoyance in Phantom Pain.

While it's understandable that not everyone likes this direction and mechanic, I don't see how it 'conflicts' with the 'stealth concepts' of the series. It's not as if nobody knew Solid Snake was sneaking around.

Does it mess with the idea of the whole solo-infiltration thing, well only story wise, but there is still solo infiltration at play. And it's not like Solid didn't have a whole support group via codec at his beck and call.

The acquisition of troops ties into Big Boss' story. Which makes you feel like you're commanding troops.

It's still a stealth game. Whether you had to go out there are grab a specific weapon or key card is no different than going and grabbing a person. Hell the only difference is that previous games had you escorting someone at some point. Here you just balloon them out of the way.
02-10-2016, 11:23 AM (This post was last modified: 02-10-2016 11:25 AM by Canucklehead.)
Post: #5
RE: Big Boss and Nation-building
The problem is that items and weapons you have to acquire in previous games aren't core gameplay obstacles like the enemies. You sneak by the enemies to acquire the items & weaponry.

Here, by contrast, rather than sneaking past enemies, you're required to engage them and then Fulton them on the spot, removing that obstacle. If enemies could only be extracted via chopper, I wouldn't have an issue with it, since the extraction itself would pose a legitimate challenge. But instead, it's not far removed from using the Traq gun, which I already take issue with, and then permanently removing the enemy from the equation altogether, which the Tranq gun never did.

The Fulton extraction mechanic removes the majority of the core sneaking mehanic from the game. Yeah, you might find the extraction itself easier if you remain undetected, but the original point of the series was to evade enemies altogether - Phantom Pain requires that you interact with them.

I guess you can place limitations on your playstyle, but those are just artificial difficulty devices. If the game had a legit difficulty system that disabled certain features, I wouldn't complain. Personally, I think the game would be best without the Fulton at all, no ACC, no weapon crafting, and simply continues on to the next Op once Kaz is initially extracted, with all weapons, supplies and transport acquired in-game, and the chopper only showing up to extract people you rescue. That would be an excellent Metal Gear. Instead, Phantom Pain gives you too much lee-way and too many liberties. It's too easy, and placing limitiations that the game didn't intend doesn't improve the game itself even if it improves the gameplay experience. And that's what I've found with Phantom Pain time and again as I kept progressing - there's always an easy way out regardless of the situation. It's poorly designed in that respect.

Balance-wise, Ground Zeroes' gameplay was far superior to Phantom Pain's, even if it had a fraction of the overall capabilities and overall size. It felt more like a Metal Gear game at heart than Phantom Pain does.

He's just a prick

I just saved 100% on stress by switching to Not Giving A Fuck
02-10-2016, 01:50 PM
Post: #6
RE: Big Boss and Nation-building
I see what you mean. Eliminating the enemies from the field makes for an easier game.

Then again you always had the option of sneaking up behind and killing them and hiding the bodies. An extra task, but that also eliminates them from play.

In MGS1 the bodies outright disappeared. In subsequent games you throw them in a corner/locker or the grass.

Arguably fultoning them is a more streamlined method, encourages the whole no-kill philosophy, and you can still get spotted.

Perhaps if they made the mechanic more involved or risky? But this may frustrate the gameplay/fun angle.

The theme of Phantom Pain's gameplay was applied to freedom of approach/open world concept. So the game was as hard or easy as you wanted it to be.

True, Ground Zeroes was more tense and that's in the old vein of doing things. I think considering the audience, Phantom Pain just straddles the line just enough to appease both sides.

I myself prefer the older style of doing things.

I think the option ought to be that you can either procure what you need on site or develop it yourself providing you have the resources. The game should be made such that you can just finish it solo from start to finish.

The problem with the former is that it requires more in-depth game design, from codec etc. to get the player to find that item they will need on site and steer them there. This is better suited to the more linear design than the open-world design. Not because it couldn't be done in open world, but because open-world is more time consuming and already stretches resources to make just the basic structure.

The added problem is that whereas the events of MGS1-3 take place over the course of a linear timeline, a story that would span a longer period of time would not accommodate the single-solo-playthrough.

Rather than saying that TPP is a bad Metal Gear game it's more that it has changed into a different style of game in major ways to suit the story it's attempting to tell.

The only way to go back would be to ditch the 'military leader' angle and go back to the lone guy placed on a singular mission.

The other obvious reason for this direction is also the monetization angle. Much easier to find ways in a bloated open world than in your traditional MGS game.

And the other other obvious reason was following gaming trends. In this regard Business-Kojima is shrewd and knows what's going on with regards to the industry.
02-10-2016, 09:45 PM (This post was last modified: 02-10-2016 09:45 PM by DarthCaligula.)
Post: #7
RE: Big Boss and Nation-building
I loved how tense it felt in Ground Zeroes when I made it inside the building where Paz is kept. Being in the heart of the enemy's territory, with no one to save you, having to rely purely on your own skills to evade the enemies and keep Paz alive. I understand how in The Phantom Pain you're playing as the boss of an army, so it only makes sense to be able to call in air strikes and an attack helicopter, but that tense feeling never came back in that game. I do in fact think the game is a ton of fun, but you never really feel as much in danger in that game. They really should never have removed the difficulty settings from this series.
02-10-2016, 10:35 PM
Post: #8
RE: Big Boss and Nation-building
Well MGSV still retains the tension in
1) Skull encounters
2) Boss encounters
3) Harder difficulty Side-Ops (Tanks & armored enemy/vehicle units)

So I think the fix would be in having highly powered enemy units scattered around. Something that'll make it more punishable if you're found or if there's an alert.

MGSV is probably held back in scope by hardware limitations, but it is still possible to achieve this.

I think another good approach is to mix it up where you've got the open world, but occasionally you are locked into a facility like in Ground Zeroes. You can't just escape, and for *reasons* you're stuck with what you have and a limited selection of stuff. And the experience of that particular level is tailor-made for that story mission.

So what if throughout TPP you had the open world as if to muck about in. And the missions and areas of that map are basically for side-ops and personnel and other acquisitions.

But instead what if the main story missions, either all of them, or a bunch of them, took you into one-time facilities/areas that are tailor made in the same vein as GZ?

Some examples that are there are areas like the human test subject place where you fight the Man on Fire. And likely the island of mission 151 that was never made. And to another extent the hospital in Cyprus. Unique locations tailor made for that purpose, and then are never accessible/used again? But story-driven circumstances limit you within those parameters? And how to place those limits without being so artificial that the designer is forcing that upon you?
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